Privilege. How can it be talked about and acknowledged in today's society

[chomalungma]

Just a follow up from the recent threads. Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged. This thread is just to carry on the conversation.

White privilege just means there is unlikely to be a time or situation in life where your skin colour puts you at a disadvantage. It doesn’t mean you won’t have other factors that disadvantage you. Eg a homeless white man isn’t disadvantaged because of his skin colour so that isn’t an argument to show white privilege doesn’t exist.

ut I'm deeply, deeply skeptical that it is as simple as the black and white (pardon the pun) narrative that you are pushing

What would you think if the main reason was because of skin colour, attitudes from the police, prejudice, cognitive biases people have....

Ah but you aren't looking at all crime. Knife crime in London is very specific. Stop and search is used for numerous reasons not just weapons, and only turns up weapons in a very small number of cases.

So yes my narrative is correct and you have had to discuss a very particular type of crime in order to try to dismiss it, whilst providing an excuse.

‘Do a privilege walk. Everyone stands in a line. I take a step forward because my parents are graduates. I take a step back because I am BAME. I take a step forward because my parents took me to the library growing up.’

But why is this necessary? We know who is privileged by seeing where they are actually stood.

If you have things most other people cannot have - a very expensive house, lots of holidays, a position of power and influence over employees, you are privileged.

If you don’t have these things, you’re not.

If you’re experiencing police harassment then you’ve had your human rights violated. It isn’t a privilege to retain human rights. It’s a right.

The constant calling people who merely have human rights with considering those people privileged is dangerous.

Agree that FSM doesn't = working class. You only get FSM if you're unemployed or disabled.

You still haven't answered my question about the BAME student from blackpool.

I did at 22:50....

Thank you all for the debate. I need to leave this now and get some sleep.

The statistics also show that, all being equal, black men are more likely to be jailed for their crimes than white men.

Please can you explain how it's divisive?

Because the left-wing obsession with itemising every perceived gradation of privilege, especially those of race and class, would put the most extreme bigots of the past to shame. Far better to see individual human beings as exactly that, not dissecting them into every little sociological peak and trough.

If you don't want to see a level playing field, or try to move towards one, how come?

Because I think a society that fetishises a dogmatic, pseudo-scientific form of equality is far less healthy than a free society that accepts a degree of inequality as the human norm.

I'd you only get FSM if you're not, in fact, working.

*ie

The constant calling people who merely have human rights with considering those people privileged is dangerous

Some things are far more than basic human rights.

Oh of course THOSE white working class names. Nope try again loads of black males called Conor, Darren and Dwayne. Perhaps you just don't know any or perhaps it is the class and not the race you are biased against?

Unlikely to be black in the towns i live close to! Possible but unlikely.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

How do you think they identify this group? Their isn't any data on jobs of parents, or of education levels that is available to the DofE in a large enough way for them to be able to identify this group as a failing group.

The data selection is gender, ethnicitiy, fsm, region. type of school, SEN.

Because I think a society that fetishises a dogmatic, pseudo-scientific form of equality is far less healthy than a free society that accepts a degree of inequality as the human norm

It's not equality as in everyone having exactly the same things. Same wealth,.

But equality as in people having the same opportunities.

No you don't only get fsm if in fact you are not working.

There isn’t anything more basic than human rights. That’s why we call them fundamental.

Now for the real bombshell...

Does a person who is born white but self-identifies as black benefit from white privilege or not?

Should they be treated in accordance with their birth ethnicity or their self-identified ethnicity.

Discuss!

And before you call me silly, this is a thing!

metro.co.uk/2019/11/18/anyone-allowed-identify-black-regardless-skin-colour-11173537/

@Oakenbeach

Can I ask a question - just to see if we are on the same page.

What do you think white privilege is?
Can you think of any times having a white skin can be an advantage?

Wow. "unlikely to be a time or situation in life where your skin colour puts you at a disadvantage." Judgmental much.

@malylis the media focus on knife crime though. Media have a history of focusing on crimes that young black men get arrested for. Another example would be panic about "mugging" forty years ago.

It's not equality as in everyone having exactly the same things. Same wealth,.

But equality as in people having the same opportunities.

You’ll forgive me if I’m sceptical of whether that’s what the current tedious obsession with “privilege” will actually provide.

The right wing don't like to discuss privilege because it challenges their self attribution bias, they like to put all their success down to their own hard work an ignore the privileges they had.

At the same time they blame the poor for being poor (spend all their money on fags and booze), they tell people who experience racism etc that we live in a very tolerant country and that sort of thing doesn't happen.

It spoils the narrative that they are entirely deserving and they don't like it.

What would you think if the main reason was because of skin colour, attitudes from the police, prejudice, cognitive biases people have....

Then I'd think we should do what we can to try to correct those things. I'm a bit skeptical that teaching the police about their white privilege would make any difference, but I'd be open to it if there's evidence it would work.

What I don't think you quite get is that, while there are plenty of Lawrence Fox's of this world who are pissed off at their loss of status, there also many of us who do want a level playing field but disagree on the best way to achieve that.

@CendrillonSings still not explaining why though except you think the left are 'bigoted' and should not shed light on inequality.

a dogmatic, pseudo-scientific form of equality - can you give examples of what you perceive this to be is it for example black people should have the same access to jobs that white people do in this country ? Or something else ?

a degree of inequality as the human norm

Who are the ones in this scenario that you think should be inequal?

It's divisive because it lumps us all together in separate groups, divided by our differences rather than what we have in common.

In a way, class privilege is the top trump, or is is male privilege? Or is it actually white privilege? If we had class and sex equality, race equality would follow on naturally wouldn't it? I don't know actually.

Just 4% of medical doctors are working class, according to the BMJ: www.bmj.com/content/355/bmj.i6330 That is a shocking reflection on how class-based professions in the UK are.

A far higher % of doctors (around 45%) are (middle class I imagine) BAME www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/workforce-and-business/workforce-diversity/nhs-workforce/latest but the article says BAME doctors face more discrimination in the profession.

45% of doctors are women, although fewer at a higher grade www.medicalwomensfederation.org.uk/about-us/facts-figures

So in the medical profession, it seems that class works against you, more than ethnicity or sex, in terms of whether or not you are allowed in. I can't remember what my point was actually, we all have our cross to bear!