Privilege. How can it be talked about and acknowledged in today's society

[chomalungma]

Just a follow up from the recent threads. Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged. This thread is just to carry on the conversation.

I found it tedious and largely pointless. Why?

Do you think blind applications is a good thing when it comes to job applications?

Yes, it would help avoid prejudice impacting on the first stage of selection (and it’s now done at my employer) whatever form this prejudice might take, including against those of a white working class background.

What worries you about trying to bring about a level playing field in many areas of life for all people in the UK?

Nothing at all. For the reasons i have given i don’t believe pushing white privilege helps this. It is both a flawed concept (for the reasons I’ve given) and deeply divisive.

The fact that white privelege isn't really discussed in much of the main stream media is because the much of the right wing MSM panders to its readers preuudices. The Guardian, whilst being denounced on here has columnists that have a wide and varied range of views.

The post about Blackpool yet again misses the point about privilege, if you are white and from Blackpool from a deprived background you are not facing difficulties, challenges and discrimination based on the colour of your skin.

For the reasons i have given i don’t believe pushing white privilege helps this. It is both a flawed concept (for the reasons I’ve given) and deeply divisive

Male privilege has been pushed for ages. There have been a lot of changes which have helped make life just that bit easier for women. Still a long way to go.

Was that divisive?

Do you think looking at why stop and search / arrest rates / chances of being jailed and why there are differences between BAME people and other groups is a good thing and asking why there appears to be such differences?

I absolutely think it’s a good idea. I don’t see what this has to do with my argument against the idea of white privilege.

@oakenbeach do really think the answer is not to talk about race but class instead?

I'm interested how you acknowledge that there is a class privilege but not then deride those calling out race privilege in a derogatory way.

What if no- one ever talked about privilege or equality - what do you think would happen then.

From my perception those on the left have been calling out class inequalities more than the current government who have actually been perpetuating it. Does what they say get negated because they also talk about race?

Maybe I don't get annoyed about the 'liberal left' talking about race privilege because I know it exists and have experienced it ? I dont then extrapolate that they only tackle that issue because I dont feel attacked because of my skin colour n this instance?

It isn't a flawed concept or deeply divisive at all. It only is if you take offence at it being pointed out.

Its interesting though that because of your own experience you are quite prepared to believe in class privilege.

Ok then, would you agree that a BAME student from a deprived background in Blackpool is likely to face more obstacles and challenges in their life based upon the colour of their skin than a white child from the same background?

I don’t see what this has to do with my argument against the idea of white privilege

People from a BAME background have a much higher chance of being stopped by police. Of being arrested, and if convicted, a much higher chance of being jailed compared to people from a similar background but with a white background.

Can you see the advantage a white background has in this case?

The post about Blackpool yet again misses the point about privilege, if you are white and from Blackpool from a deprived background you are not facing difficulties, challenges and discrimination based on the colour of your skin.

But I’ve explained that someone’s with a typical “white” working class name does indeed risk experiencing prejudice from the real privileged class-based elite. I realise that may not be convenient to your narrative.

I think the issue with privilege, is that the people benefiting from it(whichever it might be) are afraid something might be taken from them. They don't quite know what, definitely not the privilege as they have none, but something. The defensiveness and whataboutery shows that even better. There's a reason why the main argument is about someone who has nothing or has very little.

I'm white and I have privilege, even though I'm non British.

For a while I lived in a really shit,racist estate. Black people were harassed, shouted at,stuff thrown at them or worse etc.

I've had more than a few comments myself, but unless I opened my mouth(and made my very obvious foreign accent known) no one would know.

Black lady on a bike got a can of beer thrown at her and "go back to your fucking home" shouted.
When I went past ,no comment because I'm white. I passed.

Does it matter if that lady is a bank CEO and I'm a cleaner? No .Does it take anything from me or my life to accept that I am privileged due to my skin when it comes to certain situations/circumstances? No.

Accepting that you might benefit even if involuntarily from an advantage does not take anything away from you,your experiences,your life, your struggles.

Do you think looking at why stop and search / arrest rates / chances of being jailed and why there are differences between BAME people and other groups is a good thing and asking why there appears to be such differences?

These are all good things to ask, but in asking them we should not start out with a predetermined conclusion that the answer in all cases will be racial privilege. That might be one of the answers, but not necessarily the only one.

Do they @oakenbeach ? I don't think I could even tell you what a white working class name is? I can hand on heart say I have NEVER looked at a name and thought it indicated that someone was 'white'

There are swathes of BAME people in this country that you might consider have a white name I suppose , mainly to do with the the slave trade etc. But I realise that may not be convenient to your narrative

I disagree, the research done on sending CVs shows that the same CV with a typically British name (and most white working class people have typically British names) are more likely to get invited to interview than minorities.

There is such a thing a class privelege and you are definitely keen to admit to it.

You also still misunderstand the concept over all.

But I’ve explained that someone’s with a typical “white” working class name does indeed risk experiencing prejudice from the real privileged class-based elite

I have a white, middle class background. Loads of privilege there. Loads of advantages over people from much more disadvantaged backgrounds.

However, there are things about me that give me a disadvantage compared to other white, middle class people.

Society has moved towards reducing some of the barriers I face and I hope that society can move toward reducing some of the barriers others face.

I am aware of some of the advantages and disadvantages I face in life. I am also probably blissfully unaware of some of those things.

Does it have to be a zero sum game though?
There a highly successful BAME people who still face everyday and structural racism.
There are people facing unjust economy and social obstacles in a classist society that urgently need addressing. And there's obviously huge overlaps.
All of this needs addressing, and it starts off by being able to name it.

We aren't starting with a predetermined conclusion, its a good point to make. Young white men are as likely to commit crimes as young BAME men. But why are young black men stopped and searched more ?

Why do young black men get told by their parents to be wary of the police and how to behave around them, young white men don't get the same level of advice .

@rockingchaircandle excellent point.

Also you need to compare like for like.

There's no point in comparing Joe the binman with the Queen as proof there's no male privilege.
As an example:

The privilege comes when Joe and Jane both equally qualified (best case scenario), both mid 30s apply for a job in a small company. The company hires Joe because Jane is considered a financial liability if she becomes pregnant.

Exactly @PanicAndRun.

@OxfordCat good point about anonymisation - thanks, I'll ask if we do that. I do know that we use application forms rather than CVs so that it's a skills focused selection process.

@chomalungma your point about Billy Elliot really chimed with me personally. I'll try not to waffle too much.

I did have an interview at Cambridge - didn't get in - and completely felt like a fish out of water. Even before I got into the interview room I was bewildered by the people around me - eg the guy who went in before me wore a pair of jeans - I thought you had to wear a suit to interviews and I'd got myself one from New Look that I'd saved up my Boots checkout wages for and that my mum helped me choose, so I was nonplussed by this. Like, what really are the rules here? Of course I didn't understand them because they didn't work for me.

He was lounging around across two chairs and drawling that he wasn't really that bothered about the whole thing. I remember thinking he was terribly daring but also again not understanding what he said at all.

But then, how could I? For someone with my background, this was an important route that couldn't be replaced with a quick chat at the next round of arts society drinks. In terms of number of life chances it wasn't all or nothing but once that door closed to me there weren't endless others that would open. That young man had a completely different perspective on the whole experience.

And that's before we even start on the interview- my God, it was the stuff of nightmares. I honestly wasn't expecting any of the questions and just didn't know how to answer them, and none of them were what they wanted to hear. So I took my cheap New Look suit self out of there but reflecting on it quarter of a century later it was all about class.

@oakenbeach have you ever considered in the instance you quote that it might just be class privilege at work and not to do with race ?

Class inequality is a very real problem today - that doesn't mean that other inequalities don't exist, or that there is a hierarchy.

In what ways do you think class inequality can be tackled in Britain today?

All of this needs addressing, and it starts off by being able to name it

Exactly.

It does not harm people to acknowledge that there is racism in this country and it affects some people in ways other people will never experience.

It does not harm people to acknowledge that their class background gives them advantages over others.

Nor does it harm people to acknowledge that their age, gender, sexuality, education background, mannerism, accents - loads of features about them give them an advantage over others.

It does not need to be a zero sum game.

Do a privilege walk. Everyone stands in a line. I take a step forward because my parents are graduates. I take a step back because I am BAME. I take a step forward because my parents took me to the library growing up.

DH as a pale male takes 2 steps forward. He takes a step back because his parents are divorced.

And so on. See who is strides ahead.

I honestly wasn't expecting any of the questions and just didn't know how to answer them, and none of them were what they wanted to hear.

And they didn’t let you in after that? What bigots!