Privilege. How can it be talked about and acknowledged in today's society

[chomalungma]

Just a follow up from the recent threads. Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged. This thread is just to carry on the conversation.

Don’t people have enough worry in their lives, jobs, property, shopping for food, looking after their children without worry about this sort of thing

I think that a parent should worry about this for their children - no parent wants their child to face barriers in the future,.

But of course, many parents will use all the advantages they have to help their children benefit in the future. Look at getting an internship especially in London. Not easy if you don't have contacts down there, places you can stay - as they are often poorly paid.

Privilege is such a broad spectrum, it catches all form of inequality in a sense. Where you are born, whether you are the desired ethnicity, white or other. Gender, age and class/wealth. It would be fair to say imo that white male, wealthy and well educated in this country are likely to be the most privileged across the board. However the above can cross over in many ways and the definitions of privilege become skewed.

It is better to look at inequality issues that are prevalent rather than who has it better.
Feminist theory or theories tend to have a route of thought that look at gender inequalities in a specific way based on the drivers of it. Such as middle class feminism and potential to neglect feminist issues regarding race and cultural difference due to the motivations of mc feminism and not deliberately doing so out of any kind of malice(I hope). These are changing as movements change through time and inequalities are recognised where they weren't before.

I agree with pp that most people are ignorant or choose to ignore their own privileges but if more people fought to improve the disadvantages and inequalities that others experience then perceived privileges wouldn't be grudged so much.

@Amylox
You're right no one can stop being white, but the system itself can be changed, hopefully, by recognising racism and challenging it where possible. Especially when it's harder to recognise, like WP describes. I really don't think it's a get out.

Do you think we should try and identify/ challenge structural racism?

This exercise is useful for looking at many different areas of privilege

m.youtube.com/watch?v=hD5f8GuNuGQ

It also frames some of the issues as ways privilege manifests.

I've watched this with a range of audiences and am often shocked that intelligent people react so negatively to the idea they have enormous privilege.

I think people who work hard and are successful want to believe that they deserve the success fully on their own merits. To point to privilege is to take that away from them and say they've done well because of an advantage, not their effort or talents.

I was watching Billy Elliot recently.
The interview scene is fascinating - and I think it shows the effects of privilege.

Billy goes to an interview at the Royal Ballet. An environment totally new to him. Unlike the other children who come from backgrounds more used to that environment. An interview panel - and being asked to talk about why he does ballet - something he has never had to be asked about.

It reminds me of how it must be for students going to interviews at Oxbridge - I think it may have changed now but it must be unnerving for students from backgrounds not used to that kind of environment.

I don't know if others think that?

@Amylox So because the Home Secretary and the Chancellor are both BAME this means the system is now not white led? I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your "logic"!

It reminds me of men saying "you've had two female prime ministers, so female equality's happened. Now what are you complaining about".

@amylox the very fact the media mainly gives attention to white middle class people who talk about these issues as 'woke' or 'lefty' perpetuates this as a myth. Do you seriously consider that there are few disadvantaged people of colour complaining about racial inequality?

Perhaps you just don't see it because the media doesn't give them a voice and goes on about the 'woke' lefties and liberals?

You seem more enraged by white ' comfortably off middle class ' talking about privilege than the actual issues themselves which is interesting.

I'm interested to hear what you think about class privilege. Do you think class privilege exists? Do you think that there are inequalities between classes in this country?

@ThinkAboutItTomorrow

That's a great video. I can only imagine the effect if there were people from other countries in there as well.

Privilege is so many things - and that exercise with other people worked really well.

I think maybe what would help would be the discussion being less inflammatory and accusatory towards those who have it. It's seen and accused as a negative. You trivialise any issue the person with it has by telling them they have it and should be great full for it. You don't acknowledge that they have also had issues and struggles, because they have pro league so should shut up and accept their position of superiority. Maybe being a bit more accepting and less judgmental towards those who have it/ by dint of being born in the situation they were, which they never asked for, could actually move the conversation forward. I have it, and have also 'suffered' from not having it. I'm a woman, but I'm from an working class background, didn't have a big house, but did have parents who owned a home. Neither parent educated past age 16, I went to uni. Now a single parent, who took time out from work and therefore lost pension and promotion opportunities, you can positive and negative for most people, but instead people have privilege screeched at them, aren't allowed to respond and understandably when attacked, get defensive.

I totally agree OP, the self attribution fallacy that many people have is utterly challenged by the concept of privilege. Which is why lots of people don't like it.

I also find that many of the posters who try to dismiss the idea of privilege are also the ones who hold other views about the poor (but are happy to use the plight of the poor in a fallacious point when they want to)

Amylox

Of course it's not only middle class people talking about this but they are the ones who write for the newspapers! You think BME people don't talk about this? Or maybe they just arent given a platform or when they do they are accused of playing the race card or being uppity or shut down by the establishment.

I am white working class, DH is black working class and I can assure you these discussions are a regular feature in our house

Hi @CreekIsRising no medals here I promise but I think that's great! Your post made me so happy. It's a step forward! Thank you

A side note on the matter of employment - there's also some interesting research into having anonymity in job applications because of the unconscious bias that happens towards applicants with African sounding names. They have proved that applicants with Caribbean backgrounds get proportionately more interviews that those with African backgrounds, even where the African candidates had better qualifications. The reason being that Caribbean names often sound English or Scottish on paper compared to African names. So blind applications are being suggested as a possible step forward.

@SD1978 I dont understand where this narrative comes from that people have privilege 'screeched' at them - can you explain where you perceive the 'screeching' to be from ?

I acknowledge that because of me being mixed race I may not get anyone actually saying it to myself. I see people pointing out privilege in the media but I don't see 'screeching' on twitter it is quite reverse.

These discussions also abound with strawmen, no one is insisting that people should be grateful for their privileges and it also doesn't mean people who have privilege in some areas don't faces face challenges in other areas because of something they can't control, many priveleges (or lack of them) have overlap.

What seems to go on here far too often is a deliberate misunderstanding of privilege with strawman examples created rather than discuss what it actually means.

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but instead people have privilege screeched at them, aren't allowed to respond and understandably when attacked, get defensive

In a conversation about racism, I can understand someone from a BAME background getting frustrated when someone who has not experienced racism due to being BAME says that there is little racism.

Do you think it's being attacked when someone says that they have white privilege when it comes to racism - so a very specific area?

Or maybe they just arent given a platform or when they do they are accused of playing the race card or being uppity or shut down by the establishment

This. And if someone does get to appear on a TV show to discuss this, rather than listen to their experiences, they get shut down by people like Piers Morgan.

On the subject of white privilege... Someone (I can’t remember who) summarized it like this: “White privilege doesn’t mean you’ve had an easy life; it just means that your skin colour isn’t one of the things that make it harder”. As a mixed race person who has experienced racial bias, I do think white privilege is a real thing, whether white people are aware of it or not.

Having said that I understand why some people don’t like the term. Depending on how you interpret it, it can be quite inflammatory. Especially when it is used to imply that there is something wrong with being white and that white people should be sorry for their skin colour even though they have no control over it.

In regard to other types of privilege... I grew up in a very poor, working class, immigrant family but I did well academically, went to grammar school and became “well spoken”. I have been told at job interviews that I am “too posh” and therefore wouldn’t be able to relate to the “normal” people I would be working with. Which was infuriating because they couldn’t be more wrong.

I suppose the bottom line is: you can’t dismiss other people based on your perception of their background and experiences.

@Oxfordcat it was amazing the number of interviews I got with a different surname (Irish origin) in comparison to an obviously african surname (which was my stepdads in anycase).

I wonder if I had an obviously English surname whether I would have noticed any difference with my Irish surname. I don't know - but can imagine it happens and that is the point of this thread really that we should be more aware of inequalities generally

See- you're jumping on a nuance of speech and missing the point. What I mean is the discussion around privilege, and those who have it, usually turns negative- as those without it are usually negative in the conversation to those who do. You don't undertand anything because you have privilege, so don't say you don't. And it's true- there are so many aspects to privilege, upbringing, education, colour, religion, that many people have an aspect of privilege, which it's hard to accept as it's seen as negative to have any, as opposed to the whole point of privilege- you're born with it in many cases.

@chonalungma & @tomorrow great videos, they're both helpful ways of looking at privilege.

@Oxfordcat and@Creekisrising lovely to see people helping/acting on their beliefs.

Contrary to allegations in some recent posts, inflammatory and antagonistic comments aren't coming from those trying to highlight privilege.

Privilege isn't seen as negative, the idea is that it is unearned and so that we should be aware of it, and actively strive for greater levels of equality.

One of the reasons why people are so against its acknowledgement is that equality can sometimes feel like discrimination when you are used to privilege.

@sd1978 have you been reading the thread?

@chomalungma - I think that is quite a balanced way of thinking about things.

I would probably add that in a small number of cases, the woman may be privileged compared to the man - eg in some companies he might get fewer benefits if he wanted to take shared parental leave. So it is not only dependent on characteristic, but also situation. A boy liking ballet may be oppressed by societal attitudes and bullied for it; but if he persisted then perhaps he might also get opportunities that are harder for female ballet dancers to access (due to people noticing him more/rarity).

Similarly, workplace discrimination in favour of males may be a lot worse in some sectors/companies than others.

Amylox, socialists do in fact talk about class privilege and how in professions such as journalism or acting, working-class people are being shut out because they don't know the right people.

I've heard the stories from some of my friends about issues they've had over things I would never have to worry about. They can't help those issues - but the solutions would have no impact on me. Except to reduce the advantages I have, but that's not a problem.

I am sure my surname gives me an advantage over people with more foreign surnames. So blind applications reduces my advantage but also reduces the disadvantages others face.

But younger people can have an advantage over older people. At times. Making it illegal to discriminate against older people helps me but might give younger people less of an advantage.

Talking about such issues helps there be more of a level playing field in life.

Heck - even Piers Morgan would probably appreciate methods to make life easier for older people as he gets older. He just doesn't know the barriers older people can face. Yet.