Privilege. How can it be talked about and acknowledged in today's society

[chomalungma]

Just a follow up from the recent threads. Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged. This thread is just to carry on the conversation.

I think if you only consider 1 area of privilege then it's possible to claim advantage eg male/female, black/white but we aren't 1 dimensional are we? Other characteristics come into play and then it gets more difficult. Is one privilege more powerful than another - so is it better to be male or white?

Really agree with @OrangeCinnamon

We also naturally gravitate towards issues and advantages close to home. And can at times fine it hard to relate or be as passionate about disadvantages that don't affect us.

I don't have anyone close to me with a disability so I don't feel close to those issues or that I really understand the challenges other than what I read in articles and on here but that's not the same as hearing someone's lived experience.

For me with a mixed race son and a black DH issues of racial equality are a top priority for me both in terms of my capacity to relate and also my desire to champion these rights.

I'm not saying we aren't capable of empathy but just that we can often lack to motivation to really take time to understand the experiences of those who aren't in our immediate circle.

If you're black AND female, it won't make much difference what education you had, or how rich your parents are, because the twin disadvantages of race and sex will be so massive it will outweigh, or at least significantly offset, the other advantages.

Well, black women may as well not try then.

Black people make up 2.6% of oxbridge students and 3% of the UK population. Not good enough, but hardly deterministic.

60% of oxbridge students went to private schools. The reason most black kids are disadvantaged (in many areas as well as oxbridge applications) is the same reason that the vast majority of white kids are disadvantaged- the levers of power are kept by the rich, by the accretion of capital and cultural barriers. Those barriers are a lot more complex and subtle than solely race or sex.

Racism is a problem. Dividing people into groups by skin colour (which is what privilege top trumps does when applied to individuals) is not an antidote to racism, it is racism.

It may be well intentioned, it may not be harmful in the same way as Alf Garnet style racism but it buys what the racists are selling- that skin colour is deterministic of character, that race is real. It (like gender) is a toxic myth which won't be fixed by saying 'ah but I think the emperor's clothes look better like this'.

Thanks to the OP for the wording of this thread, it's easier to debate when it's not being phrased so antagonistically!

There still seems to be the problem of not understanding the concept of WP, but by less people than the previous couple of threads.

I agree privilege is a loaded term, but it is also accurate. I can't really think of a term that couldn't be corrupted... Protection? You've been protected from certain oppression and prejudice? But then, that could be difficult to hear as a poor white person that feels pretty vulnerable.

Regardless, it's not just identity politics. There's a real racism problem. And if you can't name it (because of whataboutism or hurt feelings) you can't address it. Someone said you can't help being born white, and I agree but you can help in recognising racism, even as a first step. You can't ignore it because it's difficult!

And then, also recognising other privilege, like class and sex. Not to point score, but in solidarity.

It's a complex question but I agree with pps that the rise of identity politics has damaged discussion around sociological observation of privilege, also that it distracts from the key and fundamental mechanism of power which is wealth.

I don't think that initial observation of the intersectional nature of social status was ever intended to result in this scramble for the title of most victimised/castigation of most privileged that is such a noisy, distracting and tiresome part of online and increasingly public discourse.

@rockingchaircandle it is the vulnerability that is the problem . So many sections if society are at a disadvantage today. The gap between rich and poor, black and white etc is just getting wider.

Divide and rule. :-(

I think the term identity politics is unhelpful, and almost always used by those who strongly wish to protect their own identities or the identities of the communities they come from, but deride anyone else from doing so.

@Nails it's an interesting discussion. I am reading what you say with an open mind, but I have to come back to the point which it seems some people just don't seem to "get" (sorry I'm honestly not meaning this provocatively- just trying to explain my pov) that acknowledging white privilege doesn't negate other disadvantages people have experienced.

Eg when you said with racism, but in the nicest possible way, I kinda resent being called privileged when I’ve had other, equally significant disadvantages in life This is the attitude I read a lot of posters on here saying and this is where I respectfully disagree. How do you know that your disadvantages have been equally significant? How can that be the case- if say a Black person lived your exact life with all its disadvantages but with the addition of black skin? White privilege doesn't mean that white people have it easy, or never struggle. White privilege means that the fact that you're white will almost certainly positively impact on your life's trajectory in some way, and you probably won't even notice it. The statistics bear this out.

The comment in your post also seems to take the notion of white privilege very personally- when you say you "resent it"- I feel like why would you resent it? Why take it personally? Why can't people not just acknowledge. Eg, I don't know if you are able bodied, but let's assume you are for now. If there was a discussion of the privileges experiences by able bodied people as opposed to disabled people would you still feel this resentment?
I feel like the race discussion makes people feel threatened. To bring out another term which you probably won't like, that's called white fragility. (Again, not trying to be provocative, this is a really important discussion).

I think a lot of white people have been conditioned not to mention people's race or skin colour, in a well meaning way, through their upbringing, because they know that "racism is wrong". They therefore feel awkward and like it's instinctively rude or wrong to point out another person's race - so using the term white privileged taps into that and maybe makes them defensive. White people are often really really passionate about not being accused or thought of as racist- for some reason bring accused of being a racist seems to be a worse accusation than being accused of being a thief or a murderer for example. (Just my anecdotal observations of the tabloids). This is a form of white fragility.

I think there are also underlying reasons for white fragility (not accusing you of any of this by the way) about some white people feeling uncomfortable with the status who changing. Eg it's easy to say "I support equality" but when achieving that equality would mean a person had to actually give up certain privileges it suddenly seems more threatening. We see this dynamic with some men in business for example.

Overall, I just feel that if white people could take part in this discussion without feeling personally threatened (or maybe by simply being honest and acknowledging that they feel threatened) the we would make better progress. It is not a personal comment to say someone has white privilege.

Oh and no one is scrambling for the most victimised status (except for LF) it is perfectly accurate to state that his lack of understanding about racism in the UK today is caused by the fact that he is white and benefits from white privilege.

Whichever privilege you’re discussing doesn’t mean any individual’s life doesn’t have challenges, just they have one less barrier to overcome.

It's not about being white or male, it's more about can you fit in.
Looking polished, dressing well, speaking eloquently, appearing cultured and knowledgeable. You can be any race, ethnicity but if you are above, you have a real headstart.

@malylis but this thread is full of people trying to establish some kind of hierarchy of privilege and victimhood, with comments like "if you're a woman you're less privileged, if you're a white woman you're more privileged than a black woman" etc, almost as if there was a sliding scale or a points system or something, which is exactly what I'm talking about. The discourse in general has gone from observation of social mechanism to individual perceived place within it which quickly slides into nonsense largely because most people have a variety of intersectional points.

So rather than saying “he only got the job because he’s a man and he’s white and middle class”, it might bring more people on board to say “there were lots of people who could have done the job, but they were at a disadvantage in the process due to discrimination against BAME people/women/working class? I guess I’m trying to say, maybe we should start talking about disadvantages rather than advantages? So BAME disadvantage rather than white privilege, Female disadvantage rather than male privilege; and working class disadvantage rather than wealth privilege?

I see the point you're making, but the problem with doing this is that it places the "problem" squarely on the shoulders of the BAME person. Whereas in fact, the system is run by white people. White people dominate in the top of every industry / sector and are therefore the gatekeepers and they are the ones who can effect change most quickly and effectively. If a whole person accepts that through an accident of birth and through no fault of their own they have white privilege, the next step is they can do something to change this system- by using their privilege to be an ally and do what they can in their power to move towards equality.

@Guavaf1sh what makes you think anyone wants anyone else to feel guilty? That sounds like white fragility talking.

@cookiedoughkid

but will that head start ever realise itself in equality? have you ever read the what class am I threads on here?

@CreekIsRising I think you are getting confused by people trying to explain intersectionality and others explanation of it.

If you are white and you live in poverty on a run down council estate in the north then the concept that you have privilege is laughable.

Have you ever noticed how the white people who enthusiastically endorse the theory of white privilege are almost always comfortably off middle class people?

It's an excuse. A get out. If they had to admit their privilege was due to their class, wealth and connections then they would have to admit that they could give up bits of those privilege if they wanted to.

They love the concept of white privilege as they can't stop being white so they get to hold on to all their privilege and still pretend they're virtuous because it's other people who pass on benefits of white privilege by discriminating. They can enjoy their privilege and pretend they are virtuous and blame free at the same time.

I think there is a huge, huge backlash coming for the woke left wing middle classes. Their obsession with race is classic divide and conquer. The GE was just the start...

Whereas in fact, the system is run by white people.

Which system? Have you not noticed 2 of the 3 most senior jobs in this country are held by BAME people. How is that 'white people' running the system?

@OxfordCat ok I get that, the point about responsibility for changing how access to wealth and therefore power is given and I was trying to think what I could do about that and I've decided I'll ask our staff liaison reps to raise with HR the question as to how we can ensure my workplace is more ethnically representative eg placing of adverts, use of networks etc. I know they collate voluntary responses to ethnicity questions. Background is that I was reading the minutes of the most recent meeting today and people were bringing up all sorts of irrelevant shit which made me feel frustrated so actually doing this will kill two birds with one stone - cheers!

But I do still think that the word privilege has become a bit of a dog whistle. Doesn't mean I think racism doesn't exist.

Btw I'm not expecting a medal or anything I'm just reporting that you've given me a bit of a kick up the arse and thanking you for it.

Don’t people have enough worry in their lives, jobs, property, shopping for food, looking after their children without worry about this sort of thing. Very few people care and so nothing will happen, the kind of people who hector others are usually lefty academics with pointless qualifications.

I am looking at this issue from outside Britain.
Is it not the case that accent is a form of privilege? I'm interested that I haven't really seen it mentioned, except I suppose in regards to the Irish. But Northern, Essex people etc with visibly working class accents face significant barriers from middle class/ruling class selection panels, surely?
Therefore I believe that it is a lot more complicated than "white people not understanding how they have privilege" when a characteristic of their origin (their accent) disadvantages them significantly.

Have you ever noticed how the white people who enthusiastically endorse the theory of white privilege are almost always comfortably off middle class people?
I have never noticed this, nor do I think it's true.

It's interesting to think about the privilege of a wealthy, white woman vs a poor, white man.

There are certain things that that man can do and expect that the woman can't expect due to being female. Some things are just easier and society is geared in some ways towards him for being male.

And things that the wealthy women can expect due to her wealth that the poor man can only dream of.

The woman would get upset if the man dismissed her experiences of sexism and what things happened to her / she couldn't get because she was female.

And the man would get upset if the wealthy woman dismissed his experiences due to being poor.

Both have different privileges in society. Both have different barriers in society.

Which system? Have you not noticed 2 of the 3 most senior jobs in this country are held by BAME people. How is that 'white people' running the system

In general, how many senior positions, CEOs, judges, police chiefs, positions of authority are run by BAME people?

Or women ?

Or people not from 'privileged' backgrounds?