Privilege. How can it be talked about and acknowledged in today's society

[chomalungma]

Just a follow up from the recent threads. Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged. This thread is just to carry on the conversation.

Or how about “leverage”? As in, you are able to use your sex/race/wealth to your advantage?

I'm working with an organisation with the after math of employing two men (in different parts of the org) that blagged their way into their respective jobs.

I'm utterly convinced they got them because they are white men. This is white male 'advantage' in action and something we need to talk about, even if it is difficult.

The BBC should have been talking about it years ago.

Just don't talk about it at all. The likes of @CendrillonSings would rather we didn't and mentioning it just causes a massive backlash.

I w once read, in this context, that a fish doesn't know what water is, because water is all it knows. White men don't know what white male privilege is, because they swim in it.

This does not excuse men, but self awareness is something you earn. If no one ever tells you that you need it, how are you to know that you need to earn it?

I think the problem with privilege as a concept is that true privilege is a mind set, the rest that you describe wealth, race, class etc are just variables. I consider myself a very privileged person. Some privileges I’ve experienced are obvious like having educated parents. Some privileged I have were unearned like having a loving father. Some were earned like getting a good education (I obtained scholarships, university places etc on my own). Some however were things that people would consider profound disadvantages (emotional abuse, mother with addiction issues, teenaged pregnancy, sex, race, religion, I could go on) but those things were just as much the making of me as my education or my fathers love. That’s because it was all in the head. I experienced these things with a self assurance that I could over come them and a determination to gain the most out of every experience. I can’t think of a single thing that I wish hadn’t happened to me. I am privileged because of that rather than that being the case because I am privileged. Privilege is an attitude.

To say they just got the job because of their race, you must know the other applicants and the suitability of the job right?. (and their ethnicity)

I came on to say Class privilage but @WeeSleekitTimerousMoosey beat me to it.

I think everyone is hyper-sensitive to race/sex privilege due to laws introduced around discrimination but class never gets mentioned or if it does it’s by people who say “oh there’s no such thing as class/I dont see class/who cares/I dont know” etc. etc..

“Or how about “leverage”? As in, you are able to use your sex/race/wealth to your advantage?”

Because often people can’t.., if they lack other privileges such as power, networks, education, money. Often the most that can be said is the freedom from disadvantage due to skin colour.

Maybe it should be called skin-colour privilege, which is actually more specific about what it refers to and has less implication over the whole white experience for good or bad.

I agree that the word "privilege" is not fit for purpose.

Also people cannot help being white. It's not a choice one makes. You can encourage people to recognise that they may be at an advantage, and to sympathise with those who face barriers, but to castigate people for something they absolutely cannot help is ludicrous.

It is interesting that people focus on the B and the EM people are not so worthy of interest. Middle-class Indian people I know are trundling along - nay, economically and professionally thriving - and I'm sure do not think of themselves as victims. Similarly Asian Americans have recently been vocal about being discriminated against in US ivy league admissions because they are too successful and as such their minority status is written off.

Also in a lot of the discussion “privilege” is used in quite an attacking manner, which immediately turns people off. It might be better to using it in a defensive manner instead.

So rather than saying “he only got the job because he’s a man and he’s white and middle class”, it might bring more people on board to say “there were lots of people who could have done the job, but they were at a disadvantage in the process due to discrimination against BAME people/women/working class?

I guess I’m trying to say, maybe we should start talking about disadvantages rather than advantages? So BAME disadvantage rather than white privilege, Female disadvantage rather than male privilege; and working class disadvantage rather than wealth privilege?

Can you really separate out just one privilege though?

So we say white privilege, male privilege etc and people are saying that a wealthy black man has less privilege than a poor white man because the black man will still suffer due to his race eg being stopped by the police, but is that not due to him being black and male? So he's not got male privilege in that instance has he? Who has the least privilege in that example - a black man or a black woman?

It seems that privilege becomes apparent when comparisons are made in a specific circumstance but they may not apply consistently, so how useful is it in reality?

Who has most privilege - a poor white man or a wealthy black woman?

A wealthy white woman or a poor white man?

I think if you compare like for like but change only 1 characteristic then you can see the privilege/disadvantage so , poor white woman or poor white man, wealthy black man or wealthy white man, but if 2 or more characteristics are changed then it's quite difficult to see where the privilege is.

@NightsOfCabiria I think that part of the reason that class privilege isn’t mentioned as much is partly because lower class people a often viewed adjust not being as good as upper class people (not all well educated, uncouth, lesser morals etc.) Obviously it’s all a bit chicken and egg but I think people just don’t want to get into talking about lower class people not getting jobs because they aren’t capable of doing them, why that is (I.e. where we as a society have failed lower class children, whether it’s ethical to intervene in the family lives of lower class families in order to ensure that their children are protected from disadvantage, what the point is of having state schools if they aren’t a good enough education without tutors/parental help etc). In contrast saying something like women are discriminated against because they carry children or a black barrister is a million times more likely to be stopped and searched than a white street thug is pretty easy and doesn’t require the speaker to a knowledge their own prejudices.

Don’t talk about it. It’s a nebulous concept full of contradictions and more akin to a religious belief than anything scientific or sensible. Trying to make people feel guilty for something they have no control over obviously alienates people and serves no useful purpose. It’s tiresome.

I'm ok with the term. I get i have white priviledge and to be honest i dont really understand the extent or depth of it. Ive never lived another life. I just decided ive never met a man that really got male privilege fully so i'm the 'man' in a race scenario. I've learned a tiny bit from relatives and friends.
i still have some unformed thoughts about power and privilege in the more usual british class sense. I feel that my great great grandparents who didnt have the vote and had several who children starved to death probably had more in common with black immigrants for instance and they should have grouped together. I feel the power had a vested interest in creating white priviledge in its institutions to stop that. Its unformed nonsense probably.

I think sometimes it needs better explanation - if people's first encounter with it is being told 'That's because you're privileged/check your privilege!' they will often just feel affronted and, not surprisingly, default to the line of 'But I haven't had it easy/my dad was a dustbin man/I've got here on my own merits' because they don't get that's not what they're being challenged about.

I agree with those who say advantage is a better word, because I think people more easily get the idea that it’s a relative thing. The most common use of the word privilege in our everyday language is to describe absolute privilege - as someone else here said, ease, wealth and even aristocracy. Important discussion about the advantage that being white, male, non-disabled etc are lost because of the use of the word ‘privilege’, which people assume means living a life of luxury with few problems.

I don't think it is at all an attempt to make people feel guilty for things they didn't have any control over.

It serves a very useful purpose to discuss privelege but its pointless to do so without intersectionality. So your wealthy black man does have privelege granted to him by wealth and status that a poor white person does not, but can be disadvantaged in ways in which the poor white person isn't.

Its also a very useful tool in any scrutiny of claims made by individuals, for example LF claiming that the treatment of MM by sections of the media didn't have anything to do with racism, and that we live in a tolerant country. His viewpoint is by definition tainted because he hasn't faced the same challenges as POC, he will be mostly oblivious to use of langauge and many other things that others will not, and having never faced any significant challenges based on the colour of his skin, his viewpoint can legitimately can be challenged.

In political analysis, class analysis or historic research, privilege as a concept has been used for quite some time. It can be talked about as a theoretical concept.It's an observation not a criticism. The transference of the term from those spheres to the public sphere has coincided with identity politics and it's become a loaded term used as a criticism and applied to individuals.

I'm not sure how you overcome it because the people using it in that way don't want to overcome those limitations. They've created them.

This. The incorrect use of the word privilege to silence or criticise some individuals or to provide validation for others has made the term useless.

The original academic concept is useful and important- the idea still exists we just need to be careful to describe it in a nuanced way, using other terms, so idiots can't hijack it for simplistic point scoring.

So how is the poor but bright white Irish student meant to feel when she sees a black lad from a better neighbourhood in the same
city eligible for a scholarship on the basis he’s BME but she’s not entitled to apply for it?

Should she just acknowledge her white privilege and suck it up?

And how does a “woke”’ white person do this? Wear a badge saying “I acknowledge my privilege, now let’s have a reasoned debate?”

It’s this sort of divisive identity politics which breeds a “them and us” mentality.

*I note you don't mention class or wealth privilege
They're the most significant forms....

Not if you are black. This is why these threads never end well because there isn’t a general consensus on what privilege. Being white alone is a huge privilege.

If you forgo race inequalities, then yes, wealth and class would be the next level of privilege.*

Someone upthread alluded to Top Trumps. I think that's quite a good analogy.

If you're white, male, wealthy, from an upper-middle or upper-class background, privately educated and have a degree from Oxbridge, you've probably got a much better chance of becoming PM or editor of The Times than most. If you come from a council estate and went to the local comp, you're a lot less likely to get to Oxbridge in the first place.

If you're black or female your chances will be significantly reduced. If you're black AND female, it won't make much difference what education you had, or how rich your parents are, because the twin disadvantages of race and sex will be so massive it will outweigh, or at least significantly offset, the other advantages.

But context plays a part too. The things that disadvantage you in the race to become PM might disadvantage you less in other fields, like science or the arts. That's why trying to devise a hierarchy of privileges is a it pointless.

Hi June, yes I read your whole post.

In reality the vast majority of scholarships are based on family income as well as other conditions.

Your strawman girl will however have not faced as many (if any) challenges or barriers in their life based on the colour of their skin.

On the note of scholarships, the data from the states shows that white people recieve disproportionately more of them, the same thing works in the UK, some of the conditions of some scholarships (not all) make it massively unlikely that anyone of colour will receive them.

I think we need to start having conversations about equality and striving for equality rather than privilege. Privilege is problematic because it gets conflated as above.

We all need to do our bit and call out disadvantage when we recognise it and help others to recognise perhaps? I don't know what else can be don3

I'm mixed race, so naturally I have an interest in race issues. As a female I consider gender issues. I grew up on a council estate and consider myself working class.

If I talk about equality issues about any of above does it mean I don't care for example about;
Working class boys
Disabilities
The traveller community.
North /South divide

Of course it doesn't but that is effectively what some posters are implying. The message at the moment being if you talk about race and privilege you are denying other inequalities that exist.

It seems people don't really understand the concept in this country perhaps because there is such a big gap in society and in.one way or another someone else always holds more privilege. And it's the rich white males who hold all the cards.

May be you would like to look at my thread too: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3800858-Male-privilege-How-can-I-explain-to-a-man-why-some-women-are-afraid-of-men?watched=1

I totally agree orange, just because you acknowledge privilege and inequality in certain areas does not mean you ignore it in others.

The whataboutism abounds here massively.