Privilege. How can it be talked about and acknowledged in today's society

[chomalungma]

Just a follow up from the recent threads. Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged. This thread is just to carry on the conversation.

@endofdays

I think privilege as a concept has been openly debated here, as an idea. It's a distraction to insist it's being used as a moral virtue on this thread wherever you believe the woke are doing elsewhere.

It's definitely important to have everyone understand the concept of privilege of you want to discuss it. That's not a moral virtue, that's fundamental. You can't discuss it if people misunderstand, or deliberately misconstrue it. And you can't divorce the idea from human rights. It's a description of inequality. We've discussed ways of communicating the idea in less 'loaded' terms etc. So I think most people are open to discussion and it's disingenuous to dismiss them as woke etc.

To start saying that the GE result in former labour areas was about white privilege or any other discussions of privilege is utterly revisionist and disingenuous. There was very little debate over this topic over the last few years.

Privilege IS something that you benefit from that is unearned, it does not mean that you are economically better off than another person or that you haven't had any challenges in your life that are because of circumstances beyond your control.

It isn't just an absence of a certain type of discrimination, its the fact that you are aware of and actively have to think about the discrimination/challenges you face and ways to deal with it.

As I said before, the concept of privilege makes people uncomfortable because it challenges the narrative that just working hard and making good choices lead to success. They also find it difficult because they make automatic links between any privilege and economic sucess/stability, but as well because of intersectionality, which causes the "white poor people are not privileged" outrage.

The facts about stop and search, are they area based....I think what I’m trying to say is do young men in Blackpool get stop and searched whatever their skin colour? Are there enough police officers to even do that....it seems a very London centric argument to be worried about what the police do when up north the worry is more about are there any police in the first place....

I’m white and middle class so I’ve had advantages that others hadn’t. Growing up in a very white Northern area it was class that was the privilege rather than skin colour (school with over a thousand kids and probably three were BAME, and they were middle class so did better than the working class Kids - and true to all stereotypes they ran the post office and Indian and Chinese restaurants so they were wealthier than most of the people in the town) they only racism I saw was directed at travellers or Irish people. Telling the people I grew up with that they have privilege over black boys in south London doesn't make sense to them.....after all London’s streets are paved with gold so how can they be disadvantaged.....everyone they compare themselves to has more advantages than them.

What black youth in London and white youth in Blackpool do have in common is class. They are both working class and it’s class that is the issue in the UK (USA different)

And I realise that the three BAME people may well have had racism directed at them that I didn’t notice so I’m not trying to say that they did, just that their class advantage outweighed their skin colour disadvantage, class seems to be the issue not race.

That comment does sound a bit like men saying they don't see sexism. How do you know there wasn't racism?

’All these examples are ‘rights’ that you feel entitled to if you are white but not if you are BME.‘

Everyone is entitled to those rights. It’s not a feeling. It’s international law. Many people have their rights violated and this is against the law.

The difference here is that human rights, including the concept of racial discrimination are things which are defined by law.

White privilege and racism are sociological concepts and are not part of the law.

It's not to do with being outweighed.

What do you think white privilege means?

‘I think privilege as a concept has been openly debated here, as an idea. It's a distraction to insist it's being used as a moral virtue on this thread wherever you believe the woke are doing elsewhere.‘

It was being used as a moral virtue, which is why I specifically responded. You then took my response out of context, resulting in me having to explain in more detail, because the context was lost.

This may also been of interest to people: www.researchgate.net/publication/332749635_Complex_Intersections_of_Race_and_Class_Among_Social_Liberals_Learning_About_White_Privilege_Reduces_Sympathy_Increases_Blame_and_Decreases_External_Attributions_for_White_People_Struggling_With_Pover

‘We conclude that, among social liberals, White privilege lessons may increase beliefs that poor White people have failed to take advantage of their racial privilege-leading to negative social evaluations.‘

Studying showing that belief in white privilege decreases sympathy for white people living in poverty but does not increase sympathy for black people (in the USA).

It's not a privilege OR human rights debate.
Recognising privilege is recognising a barrier to human rights. Very compatible ideas not different frameworks.

@Really12345
I get what you're saying, but I think it still comes down to the fact that it's not a zero sum game. We have to address all inequality, class and race etc.
Your 3 BAME friends shouldn't have to face racism at any level because they are less disadvantaged economically than others in their area.

People identifying white privilege also want to fight class privilege in my experience.

I can get behind the concept that the term white privilege is not the best but I really don't get why some white people cant accept what it is.

It's really nothing to do with if you feel and to what extent privilege in your life - it's not saying white people cannot be uneducated, poor, abused, marginalised, homeless, unemployed etc ... it only and just means that if you are in any of those situations it wasn't the colour of your skin/ your physical outward appearance that was amongst the factors that contributed to the situation you are in

It's about your race not being at the back of your mind most of the time and in the front of it some or a lot of the time - the privilege bit is that - not having to consider your race at all.

It's like if a stranger is rude to you, not having to consider straight off that your race may have been the reason - something you couldn't help.

If you are poor that it wasn't because your race in and just if itself meant a system, institutions are set up to disregard you and ensure your poverty

Look up a lady called Jane Elliott - her methods are extreme (due to needing to drive her messages home over a short amount of time) and yeah made me uncomfortable to watch but helps explain

Is there a reason why this is discussed in terms of privilege rather than discrimination?

As others have said, privilege is a loaded term and has a meaning that many would not identify with - the white homeless man for example could be forgiven for not recognising that he benefits from both white and male privilege because the reality is that he doesn't, certainly in no meaningful way. Most of us can recognise that other people might suffer discrimination when we don't, though, so why is it viewed as privilege rather than discrimination?

It's not my fault I'm disabled, @CendrillonSings.

‘It's not a privilege OR human rights debate. ‘

I didn’t say it was. You asked for alternative ideas so I went to the effort of explaining them.

Privilege covers three different concepts, only one of which is about denying people human rights, and conflates the three.

People using the concept of privilege give the impression that they do not consider human rights to be of paramount importance, describing them in terms such as white entitlement.

It's like if a stranger is rude to you, not having to consider straight off that your race may have been the reason - something you couldn't help.

My parents and I were showing my children around the area where they grew up - where they lived as children, the schools they went to, as part of a homework project. This was in the East End of London. We were approached by a group of Asian youths and told, in no uncertain terms, to "go home" and "to go back where we came from"! Quite ironic really as we were quite literally where we came from. Were we experiencing white privilege then, or were we experiencing exactly what you describe "a stranger being rude to us based on our race"? My mum is also of Jewish decent, though white - how does that fit into white privilege?

@Endofdays sorry if you feel I did that, I didn't intend to. It was late last night but I thought I was replying to what you said to me!
I think my point is still valid about people twisting WP into a moral judgement when it's not intended to be, or generalising to 'woke' indoctrination to dismiss the idea. But, apologies if this wasn't your intention.

The article looks interesting, thanks! Have you read the full text? I'd like to see what WP lessons look like. This is very useful for the thread, as the OP was asking how the concept can be useful, this seems to be a warning of how it can backfire.

No need to apologise! I agree with you that it is frustrating when people extend out the behaviour of the woke on twitter to condemn the whole of the left, but it is not my intention.

The lessons they refer to in that study were specific to two events they took participants from. I believe there are other studies in the US showing anti discrimination education increases racist attitudes. I don’t think there is evidence the same is true in the U.K. because we use a different framework with a focus on diversity and the law.

Privilege covers three concepts...

I read this, and the comment at 3.30am but I don't think this shows an understanding of the term privilege. There's some very clear explanations of the concept in this thread.

I think you have to understand something and represent it clearly to debate it fairly and discuss it helpfully.

The distinction between those areas and how they are conflated is actually from the research into what the term white privilege means. I’ve tried to simplify it and condense it, but it isn’t a misunderstanding or something I just made up.

@chomalungma I think that other people have dealt with what privilege means, in an academic sense it’s not being disadvantaged due to a persons characteristics but in common use of the English language it means having a total unearned advantage. To very disadvantaged white people telling them they have a “privilege” seems very dismissive of their struggles. If they only ever meet people from BAME groups who have more privilege than them (often the only BAME they will be their doctor and post office worker - total stereotypes but often true) then MSM information about a MM (who has had totally racist and horrid treatment) and initiatives for BAME youth in the inner cities (Not saying that these people don’t need help) And refugees from the Middle East being welcomed here (which they should be) they feel they are forgotten and if they try and talk about it they are just told to “check their privilege”

I agree it’s not a zero sum game but it must feel like it to deprived communities, Rey are told there is no money to save their jobs, no money for their schools or healthcare and yet they see money for these others. In my experience it is still very much class that determines your outcomes and experiences In today’s Britain

To keep bringing up deprived communities is to misunderstand what privelege is. Its a deliberate attempt to conflate class privilege and economic privilege with that which is held by someone due to the colour of their skin.

@Endofthedays
Ah, I've not seen that sorry. That's probably one of the biggest issues with the term that it's not clearly defined. I'm underqualified to define it, you've clearly read more than me on this. I was thinking it didn't chime with the definitions I've read here. Maybe someone else should debate that with you!
Thank you for the information you've given though, I'm trying to resist finding the full article you linked to add I have a lot of other work to do, but I will in the near future!

@Really12345
Again, it's how the concept is portrayed to some extent, but we agree that it's not a zero sum game.
Are there really people who will have only met BAME people who are doctors etc? But, even if the BAME people are better off in some ways, they will still face discrimination based on their race.

malylis

To start saying that the GE result in former labour areas was about white privilege or any other discussions of privilege is utterly revisionist and disingenuous. There was very little debate over this topic over the last few years.

Labour was led by a socialist - i.e. someone loudly devoted to enforcing economic and other equalities - and got smashed. Brexit was of course a key element of the election, but to pretend that the left’s ideologies played no role in their abandonment by their traditional working-class supporters is delusional. And Brexit is itself a proxy for what in the US is known as the “culture war” between left-liberals and conservatives.

‘ Its a deliberate attempt to conflate class privilege and economic privilege with that which is held by someone due to the colour of their skin.‘

The other way around. When people refer to privilege in everyday conversation, they are referring to economic and class privilege.

Using the term white privilege has intentionally caused a conflation with economic issues.

I find it weird that we've had some quite thoughtful and nuanced posts about privilege and what that means in the context of British society today, but the response of some people is to say, "That's not what privilege is. Let me reframe this back towards the over-simplistic and reductive definition that I'm used to using."