Has 'me too' made flirting obsolete?

[Maskedsingeroctopus]

Does anyone else think this is a shame? Flirting was nice, for all genders, but seems to be banned and not allowed anymore.
Replaced by the delight that is online dating!

Yanbu: It's a shame. I miss a world without flirting where people have to meet by machine (and there is no light harmless joyous flirting, without intent too)
Yabu: I prefer it this way.

Who are these men too scared to speak to any women and how do they do their jobs?!

I don't think it's necessarily that men don't know the difference between flirting and sexual harassment, nor that they're too scared to talk to women - I think it's true that organisations have stepped in and ruled out all but work related conversations, much as CharlotteMD describes. It's companies, afraid of potential lawsuits I suppose, who have gone way too far with this. The effect is the same though. How many people here met their partners through work? How do you envisage that happening in the future if socialising outside of work is banned?

"I went to Kew Gardens at the weekend,"

That might be an unwanted approach though and in lilmisstoldyouso company could lead to disciplinary action. After all what is an "unwanted approach"?

Companies have taken these steps because previously they let men get away with harassing their (often junior) female colleagues. We can't really complain about that, now, can we?

It is very easy to have a conversation at work that doesn't descend to harassment - but frankly i don't want to be flirted at in my workplace anyway (well, i work in sales, and that is as much about flirting - in the classic sense - as anything, so there is deffo flirting going on)

but where is the line
Man: mornin' Sandra, did you have a good weekend? you look nice and relaxed. That colour really suits you.
Woman: thanks, Jeff. Yes, i had a quick trip to Paris with some friends.
Man: oh la la i bet you got up to some naughty stuff there, you must tell me all about it.
Woman: haha no. Anyway, about these purchase orders…

And that's it. It stops. Harassment is when it goes on after she clearly indicates that the line is there.

I really don't know why anyone doesn't get that.

Also there's no flirting in bars, pubs and clubs

I have read some bollocks on here in my time but that ^^ really takes the biscuit. What utter bullshit. OP is clearly on the wind-up. It is disappointing that so many stupid people agree though. Those poor men, afraid to open their mouths. Total bollocks.

Brefugee

But what is an unwanted approach as a pp posted? Her workplace will suspend anyone who makes an unwanted approach. What is that?

It's also entirely about appropriateness. And in the workplace, that means that a man in a very senior position might "flirt" with a junior woman but doesn't see how the inequality and fear of reprisals would make such a woman uncomfortable in rejecting his advances. I think THIS might be the single biggest benefit of #MeToo in that it might actually make those men think about the fact that just because they didn't grab someone's knee, did they really know that the flirting was consensual?

I've never been sexually harassed or assaulted at work. But I've certainly experienced the above. But, and here's the key thing, the men who genuinely didn't realise quickly picked up on my discomfort and moved on. While the ones who thought it was all just normal ignored the signals I was giving out. And if #MeToo ditches those ones, I am all for it.

I have a good friend who has always been as timid as a mouse. She has repeatedly got into these types of inappropriate situations in which the man involved would, I'm sure, pre #MeToo have claimed that she never said anything. Because he didn't feel the need to look for more than an outright "fuck off I'm not interested". I hope that another woman like her is less likely to experience such behaviour in the future (oh, and PS, this woman's signals were pretty clear, if non verbal - for eg, she LITERALLY breaks out into hives when nervous or uncomfortable. You'd have to be BLIND not to notice).

If sexual assault and sexual harassment equals flirting in your world then YANBU
but I'm sure for the rest of us who can distinguish the line YABU as flirting is very much alive and perfectly normal.

hear

Oh I was just giving an example of what I’d reply.

Company policy should be clarified if it’s no chit chat at all.

No flirting in bars or clubs

Brefugee the line is his first comment - remarking on personal appearance.

So a fellow female colleague is allowed to say "you look lovely today, name, I like your top."
But a male colleague isn't?

Doesn't seem fair.

But what is an unwanted approach as a pp posted? Her workplace will suspend anyone who makes an unwanted approach. What is that?

I get that my example was a bit meh but i was thinking on the fly. If you know the people you work with, why have a problem with saying "your dress is nice? that colour suits you?" those aren't things like your looks etc that you can't change. Most people i know have no problem with that unless it's that well known sleazebag Jeff from accounts who slaps your backside while you use the copier that's why it's difficult to give an example.

A cheery hello is fine though. What I'm hearing from the "#MeToo ruined everything" brigade is something different. It's Not Allowed (when clearly it is). I would hope that any company that has notices that all cases of unwanted flirting (or conversation which is what a lot of it is) would also, to a complaint of "Dave said that colour suited me" would say "ok folks, let's not have any of that" but not go down the kicking Dave out route.

I don't get it. I mean, i was in the Army, I've been harassed with the best of them. At first it was awful then i fought it and was a Po Faced Feminist Who Doesn't Understand Fun. And then I was a Po Faced Feminist Who Doesn't Understand Fun And Is Infecting The Younger Female Soldiers With It.

And yet: I married a fellow soldier and so did most of my friends back then. Obvs there was some middle ground. Have people really forgotten how to talk to each other.

But none of this is down to #MeToo. Or if it is it's because men finally seem to be getting it.

So a fellow female colleague is allowed to say "you look lovely today, name, I like your top."
But a male colleague isn't?

Doesn't seem fair.

Well no, none of this is fair. The fact the conditions for #metoo existed aren’t fair.

I try to refrain from comments on a person’s appearance full stop unless I know them well enough to be confident they’ll be welcome, to be honest. There’s no need.

This reminds me of things my DH said he used to think, long before I knew him. He used to be incredibly shy and naïve, said that he didn't dare talk to women or girls, because he was afraid of being "accused" of something. He also said that he would never work with children, for the same reason. But he was very risk-averse in general; in my view, unhealthily so, he was always afraid of being told off or criticised. He didn't have a girlfriend at all until he was about 28.

I think he's far more worldly wise now, works with children even though he said he never would, and knows the difference between flirting and unwanted attention.

I wouldn’t lament the lack of male comments on female outfits at work.

Flirting has not been outlawed in my world at all. I witness it regularly. Maybe leering and cat calling has reduced and that's no bad thing.

Conversations with my grown up DD would seem to bear out what the OP says about groups interacting less in bars.

However I think this is less to do with the whole me too thing, than with women themselves no longer tolerating being harassed in bars DD and her mates have very little problem with telling a group of lads to go away and leave them alone. In my generation we were conditioned to put up and shut up.

DS is dating someone he met at work. He says his office is like a dating agency; lots of twenty somethings new to London.

I’m happy with no one making remarks on appearance at work.

If you know the people you work with, why have a problem with saying "your dress is nice? that colour suits you?" those aren't things like your looks etc that you can't change. Most people i know have no problem with that unless it's that well known sleazebag Jeff from accounts who slaps your backside while you use the copier that's why it's difficult to give an example.

I think this sums it up though. It's difficult to give an example, as you say. What you consider to be an acceptable comment, someone else might nit which is why, I think, many companies have forbidden any chit chat at all, which is what I think the op is talking about.

I’ve also had a woman make me very uncomfortable. She commented on how well I was or wasn’t looking each day, and obsessed over my hair every day.

I actually played the race card to shut her up about my hair.

So no personal remarks is great AFAIC.

Seriously.

Flirting has not been outlawed or ended due to #Metoo.

It may be the type of places you’re going to or what you consider flirting is vastly different from others if you believe that.

A decent human being would say 'it's great that we're trying to tackle sexual harassment and assault and having to be a bit more careful about what I say is really no hassle for me.' But a very large amount of men seem not to be decent. What's worse is that they like to advertise the fact that they're not decent (with their whining) and seem not to think it's a problem. Which sums up the whole problem really.

The questions I want to ask are:

1. who do men think they are? Their need to flirt is totally irrelevant and yet they seem to think it's a real issue that people should be worried about. I mean, come the actual fuck on.

2. Why don't men have more shame? Why are they not more embarrassed about using a situation in which women have suffered major pain and indignity as a way to imply that they're somehow hard done by? Are they ever going to GROW THE FUCK UP???

Why do you think no-one is flirting anymore?! How bizarre. I was flirted with in a bar recently - or are you saying that didn’t happen because it’s been “outlawed” now? Are you sure it’s not just YOU that’s not being flirted with? And you’re blaming this weird explanation? Very odd!

“ Their need to flirt is totally irrelevant and yet they seem to think it's a real issue that people should be worried about. I mean, come the actual fuck on.”

Maybe there’s a business opportunity here....

OP sounds like the kind of person who likes being whistled/cat called at because it feeds their need for attention and who tells other women they should welcome it too.

OP sounds like the kind of person who likes being whistled/cat called at because it feeds their need for attention and who tells other women they should welcome it too
Quite. I get the impression they think women these days don't know how to take a compliment, because they object workmen calling "nice tits love" as they walk past.