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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Has 'me too' made flirting obsolete?

253 replies

Maskedsingeroctopus · 18/01/2020 20:40

Does anyone else think this is a shame? Flirting was nice, for all genders, but seems to be banned and not allowed anymore.
Replaced by the delight that is online dating!

Yanbu: It's a shame. I miss a world without flirting where people have to meet by machine (and there is no light harmless joyous flirting, without intent too)
Yabu: I prefer it this way.

OP posts:
Poetryinaction · 21/01/2020 13:12

YABVU
Flirting is a 2 way thing.
Me too shows support for victims of harrassment. It is not a shame that there is less harrassment.
If someone tries to flirt and it goes nowhere, they stop. If the other person reponds, great. But if they carry on when their behaviour is unwanted, that is not flirting.

StillWeRise · 21/01/2020 13:14

oops sorry
winterval it is then

BrimfulofSasha · 21/01/2020 13:15

You've complete missed the point of me too...flirting is completely acceptable. If the receiver feels a mark has been overstepped then they would tell the giver and therefore they should stop.

stop making up bullshit to discredit metoo

BlingLoving · 21/01/2020 13:35

"There is a world of difference between saying to a colleague “you look nice today” and “your arse looks good in those trousers”

In theory, I agree. But actually, I think it is inappropriate in most cases because the person on the receiving end may or may not be comfortable. Before everyone starts shouting about Snowflakes, my point is that workplaces are usually hierarchies. A comment about appearance is, usually, entirely pleasant and non threatening with no ulterior motive. BUT.... unless you are personally also friendly with said colleague, how do you know?

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be rushing to HR if someone comments on appearance. It just feels to me like it assumes too much and it's unnecessary. The 21 year old intern might not actually be in a position to feel comfortable. She might feel self conscious if she's being noticed. She might not know how to respond.

I worked with a young PA once. Her clothing started to become inappropriate in the office. A few "jokey" comments were made on her appearance and, as it turns out, a LOT of comments were made behind her back. Culminating in an unpleasant direct confrontation during a performance review that came out of nowhere (for her) and made her understand people had been talking. As it turned out, I, as the senior person on the team, had also noticed her clothing changing. And while she didn't report to me directly, had quietly taken her aside to discuss it. It turned out she'd been gaining weight but hadn't wanted to acknowledge it and buy new clothes. Subsequent to our conversation, her clothing improved. And by the time it was brought up in her performance review, her dressing had reverted to entirely appropriate. Which her line manager was forced to agree when the PA pointed it out. (I found out all this only because she then approached me to thank me and told me that if I hadn't had the informal, yet official, chat, it would have been more severe and upsetting). But her upset over the whole thing didn't fade and she subsequently resigned.

The problem was the informal comments, made to her and about her, created a very unpleasant working environment for her. Obviously, this isn't the same as people regularly commenting on how nice someone looked, but in the same office, a very stylish women got a lot of comments. She told me years later that it put a lot of pressure on her as she felt if she wasn't perfectly turned out every day, people would notice and/or comment.

It just seems to me that it's not necessary. It's not harassment or whatever, but why even go there?

AnArrestableOffence · 21/01/2020 13:50

I think it may have made it obsolete in the workplace.

You can't control how a message is received and in a workplace the guidelines are quite vague, but with #metoo, they have to be seen to respond to a complaint that has any sexuality associated with it.

The sensible thing to do is to avoid those sorts of interactions in a work environment. However, the reality is that work is still one of the most common places to meet a partner (maybe the most common, I can't quite recall).

There will always be a point, in those situations where someone (usually the man in heterosexual pairing) has to make a clear advance beyond the realms of friendly acquaintance into potential romantic/sexual partner. There's no real way of doing that whilst guaranteeing that the recipient won't be uncomfortable.

cologne4711 · 21/01/2020 13:55

The maddening thing is that I heard recently that women get fewer mentoring opportunities or informal networking opportunities because men are scared to meet with women (especially younger women) for fear of being inappropriate

But look at all the threads you get on here about wives getting jealous of their husbands having lunch with a younger female colleague. You don't always want mentoring meetings in the office, it's a lot nicer to go out for coffee or lunch. Somewhat different point, I know, but it isn't straight-forward for older men to be mentors for younger women.

PhilomenaChristmasPie · 21/01/2020 13:58

I had a gay, male best friend. We flirted all the time! The safest flirting imaginable!

Chocolate1984 · 21/01/2020 14:10

I was told by a younger person that no one flirts or talks anymore as they just go on tinder If they want to hook up.

GoodbyeRosie · 21/01/2020 14:10

I think there is a point somewhere in this, maybe something like :

" As people have become more educated on what sexual harassment is, do you think flirting has decreased "

Well, the answer would probably be yes in the workplace, as nobody wants to run the risk of being accused of sexual harassment ..and that comes down in part to how poorly received your flirting is.

I think proper flirting happens mutually to be honest, doesn't it?. You don't flirt AT someone, you flirt WITH someone.

PanicAndRun · 21/01/2020 16:16

You don't flirt AT someone, you flirt WITH someone.

This is a very good point, and probably why so many men bemoan the changes in work (and social) culture.

NearlyGranny · 21/01/2020 16:32

Nobody has banned flirting. Flirting is not sexual harassment. Unwanted touching, leering and inappropriate comments are not flirting. Flirting involves two people playfully and willingly interacting. Nobody has a problem with it.

People who claim not to be able to tell the difference should not engage in either. They should probably isolate themselves from society entirely.

Bluebutterfly90 · 21/01/2020 16:37

YABU.

The people who feel unsafe flirting because they think they'll be accused of sexual harassment clearly were shit at flirting anyway.
And to be honest I hate being flirted with. It makes me feel very awkward, and it's something I've no interest in.

Men can read social cues. I'm more than happy to have the pretense that they can't taken away. The guys who were making women uncomfortable knew damn well what they were doing.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/01/2020 18:30

inappropriate comments are not flirting. Flirting involves two people playfully and willingly interacting. Nobody has a problem with it.

The problem is though, who decides what is inappropriate? That can be subjective and what I might think inappropriate between myself and 1 colleague I might consider entirely appropriate between myself and another colleague. Yes, flirting is banter between willing participants but 1 person has to start it, and that might be deemed inappropriate, or they might misjudge the conversation and say something that the other person considers too far, so it's not as simple as saying if you don't touch someone or leer at them then you're fine and if you can't work out the difference then you're the problem. You don't know always know what the person in front of you considers inappropriate do you?

Maskedsingeroctopus · 21/01/2020 18:51

Are you all smug marrieds that want flirting banned? May you dance around, glad that the younger generation can't meet in real life or at work or initiate romance apart from via tinder. Be justified in your irrational tales of rare woe.
I loved the concept and reality of flirtation and what it brought to the workplace.

A lot of man hating and lack of foresight for the future on this thread too.

I'd have thought that meeting in real life is a lot safer than Tinder, but what do I know.

What if people don't want to go on Tinder, is that really their only option? What if some girls like the man to make the first move?

This is not about me. This is about a changing world.

OP posts:
cavabiensepasser · 21/01/2020 19:00

Lol, OP, you're bloody hilarious, you are.

I'm fairly sure young people will be just fine; and hopefully with less sexual harassment too. This is a step in the right direction.

Bluebutterfly90 · 21/01/2020 19:07

OP, believe it or not dating has not yet become a choice between meeting on tinder or going to jail for sexual harassment. I think you need to chill out a touch.

doublebarrellednurse · 21/01/2020 19:17

Annnnnnd this thread gets funnier.

I am a "smug married" but I met my husband in a bar Shock on a night out Shock and we flirted up a storm ShockShockShock

There's a huge gulf between only meeting someone on line and being charged with sexual harassment OP, it's a shame you can't see that.

EmeraldShamrock · 21/01/2020 19:19

I don't think it has brought nearly enough change. Yabu for boxing flirting in with sexual abuse.

RuffleCrow · 21/01/2020 19:23

If you can't tell the difference between flirting and sexual harassment then you shouldn't be doing it. Biscuit

EmeraldShamrock · 21/01/2020 19:31

Are you all smug marrieds that want flirting banned? May you dance around, glad that the younger generation can't meet in real life or work Why cant they.
Also as far as I'm aware married people enjoy a good flirt as much as the next person. OP I don't think you understand the concept of flirting.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/01/2020 19:34

If you can't tell the difference between flirting and sexual harassment then you shouldn't be doing it

It's not the difference between flirting or sexual harassment though is it? As someone said earlier their workplace gas deemed "unwanted approaches" action worthy of suspension. What constitutes an unwanted approach? It could be saying hello couldn't it, if the person you say hello to doesn't want you to say it.

Ferretyone · 21/01/2020 19:36

@Petrichor11

YES! Whatever happens you must know and understand the limits. If it's not welcome then it is - or approaches - a problem

phoenixrosehere · 21/01/2020 19:39

I am a "smug married" but I met my husband in a bar shock on a night out shock and we flirted up a storm shockshockshock

Same here. I met my husband at a pub while I was talking to an old acquaintance (the bartender). It was my first time ever there and he happened to be a regular. He came in said hello to the bartender and bought a drink for himself and me. I was about to tell him thank you and that it wasn’t necessary, but our eyes locked, flirted and talked over music and the differences between American and British culture and the rest was history.

Most of the people I know met their spouses outside of online dating. Not sure what OP is on about.

PanicAndRun · 21/01/2020 20:25

Despite all these sterile workplaces,lives and nights out the relationship board is full of women with cheating partners/husbands. Somehow a lot of those OW are work colleagues or new "friends". Those men must be bloody awesome to be able to start an affair when apparently flirting and chit chat is now banned.Hmm

BohoBunney · 21/01/2020 20:35

The world has not and will not ever abandon flirting. Just because your generation all met at work doesn’t mean that’s how it all should be and has been. I don’t bet many miners were knocking each other off next to the canary cage.

More people chose to meet online now for convenience. People have to work longer hours for shite wages to afford their own place, which means less time for leisure activities. That precious time is used to exercise, clean, home life admin, see family and friends and so people turn to OLD as it’s convenient. It allows you to get to know someone without investing time in dates and conversation can fit in around a busy schedule. You said it yourself the world changing, just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s bad.