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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Has 'me too' made flirting obsolete?

253 replies

Maskedsingeroctopus · 18/01/2020 20:40

Does anyone else think this is a shame? Flirting was nice, for all genders, but seems to be banned and not allowed anymore.
Replaced by the delight that is online dating!

Yanbu: It's a shame. I miss a world without flirting where people have to meet by machine (and there is no light harmless joyous flirting, without intent too)
Yabu: I prefer it this way.

OP posts:
cologne4711 · 19/01/2020 14:54

There's you crying, and along comes Dr Creepy to deliver a nice hug along with a quick brush against your breast and a hand that lingers on the top of your butt cheek

But that's not flirting and nobody would say that it was. Flirting does not equal physical contact. Or using a senior position to make a younger colleague feel uncomfortable.

But if you come into work having a new dress or a haircut and a bloke you find creepy says "like your dress" that's harassment. But if you like the bloke, whether or not you'd ever take it further, it's flirting. I think the OP has a point and I also think the boundaries change depending on whether the guy is young and hot, or old and fat. Young good looking men can flirt, older ugly ones can't.

ImNotACuntYoureACunt · 19/01/2020 14:55

YABU if you think that sexual harassment/assault are the same as flirting.

FWIW metoo is having a positive impact on a personal level for me as it’s been great for having conversations with me daughter about what is and isn’t acceptable behaviour. At 12 she’s already faced this stuff more than once and although it’s upsetting that she has, I’m glad she is informed enough to put the blame for it where it belongs, which isn’t with her. I wasn’t given that message when I was young.

Maskedsingeroctopus · 19/01/2020 14:59

Also I think that insinuating that it's because I'm too unattractive to be flirted with is a) beside the point and
b) unfeminist.
Young beautiful women are no doubt affected the same.

I posted this because it's a debate worth having and has affected our society.

OP posts:
CharlotteMD · 19/01/2020 15:00

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

In my direct experience Consultants and Senior Surgical staff rarely speak to junior nurses. They generally speak directly to me, colleagues or Ward management.

And I've never been afraid of or felt the slightest bit intimidated by anybody, didn't care who they were - so no, I have never experienced harassment or exploitation, even as a student. I have been shouted at many times but I've never had a problem looking after myself. In any situation.

This is my experience, Yours maybe different.

SmileEachDay · 19/01/2020 15:02

OP what do you think the answer is? Did you read my post a page or so ago detailing some stats about sexual harassment?

Do you think it is good that young women perhaps have more of a voice because of #MeToo?

Do you think maybe men have a responsibility to stop sexually assaulting women?

Should women just shut up about it so that “flirting” can continue?

SmileEachDay · 19/01/2020 15:06

And I've never been afraid of or felt the slightest bit intimidated by anybody

What about women who are afraid? Or who have already been assaulted so are wary?

Maskedsingeroctopus · 19/01/2020 15:07

Sexual assault is not flirting and flirting is not sexual assault.
Do you think we should live in a world without flirting?
Should people only meet by dating app and never suggest otherwise in real life. Should men and women only be purely professional.
What about young people? Same rules for them? (Wait until 18 then go on app.)

OP posts:
SmileEachDay · 19/01/2020 15:17

You haven’t answered any of my questions OP.

You’ve done exactly as I’d expect you to do.

SlapItOn · 19/01/2020 15:17

I work in a male dominated environment. Always have and I can tell you that sexual harassment is commonplace. It's not as bad now but it's still there. Flirting hasn't changed- that still happens, it's healthy and very different from sexual harassment.

It's interesting how it's changed for me as I have aged, as I have progressed and as times have changed.
I went from being the target as I was new, young and inexperienced in both the workplace and life, to being "one of the lads". Or, as I now see an enabler, co-conspirator. I felt lucky to have been accepted as competent, part of the team. This should have been my right. I was competent. I was part of the team. I dismissed it as banter, letting off steam, a laugh. The women involved knew what they were getting in to. They had a choice Hmm

My DD entered the workplace as the whole #metoo movement blew up and it caused me to take a long hard look at myself. I now call it every time I see it- from the "jugs" comments every time an attractive woman walks in to the room, to the often married men who flirt with/harass the assistants, the juniors. They don't target their attractive colleagues who are the same age as their wives. They wield their power over those that have less, thus compromising their ability to say "no". They moan in the same way the OP has about how they don't know where the line is anymore- I tell them every time where it is because it's really clear! They've stopped moaning to me. Don't share the misogynistic crap they once did with me and guess what? Treat me like an equal, for the first time ever.

Whilst we make excuses for them, laugh along and sympathise with their bull shit, we are complicit. I was complicit, despite being targeted, despite being raped. I am thoroughly ashamed of myself for that. As a result I will do everything in my power to protect others not in my position of power. To protect my DD

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 19/01/2020 15:19

What I am surprised about CharlotteMD is your lack of awareness that it goes on when everyone I know is well aware it goes on

SlapItOn · 19/01/2020 15:20

Failing to get the connection between OLD and #metoo Confused

midgebabe · 19/01/2020 15:28

It's not a case of a single statement being considered flirting or harassment, or it depending on how you like the bloke,

If someone says "I like your dress" that's fine. If you twirl or flutter or comment on their outfit,then you are encouraging. If you just say thanks and move on, you are not encouraging

Harresment starts when you give out negative signals and the chap continues with the flirty statements, harresment is refusing differentiate between someone being professional and polite and someone flirting back.

If you find it difficult to tell the difference, then just back off.

JassyRadlett · 19/01/2020 15:28

Oh dear. What a silly premise. Flirting certainly hasn’t been outlawed - I still see plenty of it.

The problem lies with those who can’t flirt without a side order of sexual harassment, and those who don’t recognise flirting without heavy sexual innuendo. Those people are going to be a bit buggered until they’ve learned a more subtle and skilful flirting approach.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 19/01/2020 15:31

And I am assuming CharlotteMD you are senior medical professional. So your job has been spoilt as you can no longer have that friendly uninhibited banter and hug from a male colleague when upset

This has to be the first I have heard why working in the NHS has become untenable and considering a move to private practice

theWarOnPeace · 19/01/2020 15:31

I posted this because it's a debate worth having and has affected our society.

But you’re not debating are you? You’re conflating two things that are totally ridiculous to put in the same sentence. Flirting hasn’t been stopped by #metoo and if a man is so thick that he is terrified of flirting, in case a woman thinks he’s a sexual predator, then perhaps the big wide world is better off without his attempts. Pre-#metoo I can think of all sorts of creepy behaviour that the man attributed to flirting, and left me feeling disgusted. I can also remember all sorts of nice moments of flirting, with respectful men who resisted grabbing my arse or sending me dick pics. My husband flirted with me loads in the beginnings of our friendship, but it was obviously encouraged by me and reciprocated to the point where we began a romantic relationship. That’s nowhere near the unwanted and constantly rebuffed advances of my older, superior, married co-worker at the time, who was incessantly inappropriate, and I refused to work with him when he didn’t stop. Can you see no difference?

Also. Does your lamenting the lack of flirting in the workplace really trump the importance of the #metoo movement, and the amazing work that’s being done to protect women?

PanicAndRun · 19/01/2020 16:00

Do you think we should live in a world without flirting?

You're the only one conflating sexual harassment with flirting and thinking it's been banned. The problem lies with you.

PanicAndRun · 19/01/2020 16:03

I find it mind boggling that so many women equate fun,joyous,warm, enjoyable working environments with flirting, to the point that someone is not enjoying their job anymore.

Maybe you need to ask yourselves why. How would you cope in a female only (predominant) environment?

AutumnRose1 · 20/01/2020 02:07

“ Flirting hasn’t been stopped by #metoo and if a man is so thick that he is terrified of flirting, in case a woman thinks he’s a sexual predator, then perhaps the big wide world is better off without his attempts”

This.

I’ve also heard men say “oh but then it will be impossible for socially awkward men to have relationships”.

Um, how is that anyone else’s problem?! Plus, there are lots of socially awkward people in relationships and they managed to get there respectfully.

FrankSlater · 20/01/2020 02:29

TBH I think young men should be extra careful regarding flirting with any woman who has had a drink. As a traditionalist I would like to see our culture re-develop some rules & expectations around courting rather than the hedonistic free for all we see on the streets every Friday night. People getting hammered and hooking up is a recipe for hurt feelings, misunderstandings as well as genuine & false accusations. Such a culture also leaves women prey to the genuine predators out there.

Sadiee88 · 20/01/2020 02:42

@Maskedsingeroctopus I agree with you. Men are too scared to say anything to women these days. I’m talking things like basic door opening, not grabbing someone by the crotch.

CloudonLegs · 20/01/2020 03:16

If anyone really believes 'men are too scared to even talk to women these days' they need to open their eyes. For a start you could read the thread about women being catcalled and groped when they go outside.

AutumnRose1 · 20/01/2020 03:35

Who are these men too scared to speak to any women and how do they do their jobs?!

SinkGirl · 20/01/2020 08:50

Men too scared to talk to women? Give over. How bloody ridiculous. Again, if men don’t understand the line between pleasant conversation and flirting and sexual harassment they should take a good look at themselves. It’s not difficult.

AngelsSins · 20/01/2020 09:35

AngelsSin you seem to think all fault sits with men. All I can say is I have never experienced sexual harassment at work , ever. And my male colleagues are all professional guys whom I trust implicitly. What can I say. Its a shame its come this. Spolit the job for me

Again you avoid the question. Are you suggesting women should shut up about being sexually assaulted to make men more comfortable?
Why is it ok for your colleagues to exclude you for being female, that’s rather sexist isn’t it? If you’ve never been harassed and all the men you work with are perfect angels, then why are they so scared?

Stop blaming women for male behaviour.

Oh and yes, I 100% blame men when they sexually assault women. I’m staggered that you don’t.

AngelsSins · 20/01/2020 09:46

The sterile world these women seem to desire worries me. It's not about wanting men to flirt with me, it's the reluctant acceptance that we live in a world without flirting

What are you talking about? Where has the Me Too movement been about wanting a sterile working place? It was about sexual assault. Are you another one who thinks women need to shut up, rather than expect men to treat us with more respect? You seem to blame women for speaking up, rather than the men who abuse or the ones who then create a sterile working place to punish you for being a female who might end up accusing an innocent man, you know, like all us women do Hmm