Husband holding hands with male friend.

[User3679963]

I would like a little perspective please.

My husband told me that a male friend (who he rarely sees) holds his hand when they meet up. I think this is odd, I cant imagine walking through town to see my husband holding hands with his friend. But my husband genuinely sees nothing wrong with it. When I said I thought it was odd, he stared at me blankly and just said 'Sorry I dont see what's wrong with it.' His friend is straight, as is my husband (although during his teens he apparently used to hold hands with another male friend, who he thought he had feelings for but in the end they were just very good friends. They both had hard upbringings and were like brothers).
I asked him if he thought it appropriate to hold a female friends hand, and he said if she was to reach for his hand he wouldn't have an issue with it. We are all British, so it's not a cultural thing. (I know in some cultures it's the norm for male friends to hold hands)
So as not to drop feed, my husband isn't the most affectionate person. We're intimate on average once every 4 months, sometimes 6, and he sees this as normal and has no worries about it. We rarely kiss other than a peck when one of us is going out, and hes not the type to cuddle up on the sofa in the evenings (it wasn't like this before we got married) So I can't tell if he is either genuinely detached emotionally, so something like hand holding isn't an intimate action to him, or whether there is more to this.

I'm sorry if this seems like a ridiculous thing to ask.

She doesn’t need or have to.

For the record, I don’t think we have a british culture anymore. We used to have, but it’s been diluted over the years through our acceptance of other cultures. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

If you asked me to define British culture, I’m not sure I could to be honest. Fish and chips in a Friday? Queuing? Tea and biscuits? All I can think of is facetious examples that don’t really mean anything.

Oh another one? Banter. Men ribbing their friends down the pub, putting down women who should be in the kitchen, which they don’t really mean but just say to impress their friends.

Annoyances at being put on hold in a telephone call?

Genuinely, what makes us British? Is it a never say die attitude? Is it an acceptance of others and a live and let live approach? Is it putting down and not accepting anything different to ourselves as individuals? Is it beeping horns at traffic lights?

I genuinely don’t know? Or can’t put my finger on it.

What it clearly isn’t however is a man holding hands with another man. (Being facetious again)

I got beat up for holding my boyfriends hand once. That made me proud to be british. Or rather that made me proud of british culture.

But I digress. Can anyone - anyone - name three things, or ten things, or just one thing that encapsulates british culture? The kind of comment that when asked such a question, every single person would agree - yep, that is a great example of british culture?

"Watching the English" by anthropologist Kate Fox is a great book on British culture and our unspoken rules. I laughed a lot whilst reading it:

"The rules of weather-speak. The ironic-gnome rule. The reflex apology rule. The paranoid-pantomime rule. Class indicators and class anxiety tests. The money-talk taboo and many more ..."

Not normal it's suspicious

@ripples101

I think you're confusing yourself.

Firstly, explaining an aspect of a culture isn't necessarily an endorsement of it.

Secondly, culture encapsulates all the small unwritten rules about social interactions and customs that we unconsciously abide by.

Ripples101
You're right it's challenging.
I have DC in laws from other countries so trying to think what they'd say.

My Mediterranean son in law was stunned to find dogs living in the house. Even more so to find cats living inside so I'd guess that's quite British (maybe US and other English speaking countries too, I don't know). So I'd say having pets as part of the family is one.

Sending Christmas cards. I know it's dying out but I was surprised when I learnt none are sent in other European countries (try buying one in Italy!) so I think again that's English speaking world.

Not complaining when a restaurant serves poor food. I think we are improving but are still inclined to say nothing but not return (and maybe give a poor review).

Owning a teapot (lots of young people
don't I know) there is never one in Airbnb's / villas abroad unless the owners are British. Ditto a kettle, they have coffee machines and heat any other water in pans.

School uniform is pretty rare anywhere outside Britain and Ireland I'm told. Particularly in state schools.

Thank you letters (another dying thing). My foreign son and daughter in laws think they're ridiculous. It was always a part of childhood to write them and I still like to receive an acknowledgment of a gift received. Quite happy with a text or email these days but nice to know they got it.

Do other countries go out for afternoon tea?

I think we do talk about the weather more than most, because it's so unpredictable probably.

Anyway there's a few. Discuss!

Yeah i agree with that formerbabe.

It is hard to define what a specific culture is

You weren’t able to.

Nor am I. I’ll admit to that.

I’m not confused by that. Not am I confusing myself. You are kidding yourself however if you think your replies to me got anywhere close to describing what British culture actually is.

One more British thing. The concept of being poor but "posh" or genteel. It's how I was brought up but try explaining that to Americans. I think France has it too maybe. "Old money / no money" is another version of the same.

I don't normally, as I don't often think Male opinion needs to be included, but in this instance I asked my husband. He laughed And said " come again",, so I asked if he would hold his male friends hand. He said no. I asked what he would think if he saw two male friends holding Hands, and he said, I'd assume they were gay.

If your husband was holding a females hand, how would you feel Op?

What I said is that its not considered the 'norm' in the uk for two heterosexual men to walk down the street holding hands.

I didn't pass judgment on that.

My husband would and does. He's not gay or bi. I know this, because if he were, he'd certainly not be with me but happily married to his gay best friend.

But you would not see the gay couples we are friends with holding hands, or even standing close together if they/we go out. Because it would be romantic for them and they are worried about homophobia, the straight men who have never had to deal with it in the same way, and who don't have to live knowing there are people in the world who would murder them for their sexuality, are the ones who hold hands and are kissy/cuddly with other males in public (especially when drunk). At least in our group.

They just aren't worried about being seen as possibly gay. -- That might sound odd for straight men in the UK, but they don't see being gay as anything to be ashamed of and they don't have the same fear as actual gay or bi friends do.

But they/we are young-ish and in an LGBT heavy friendship group (I'm bi myself, and such).

If your husband is over 35 and isn't super chill about LGBT stuff I think that its something I'd be more concerned about. I think for certain pockets of younger people (especially in LGBT friendly groups), it's normal, though. In fact, it's sort of expected the straight ones in the group will be in some way gender stereotype non-conforming, because that's part of where the affinity and sympathy, and sense of a deep shared belonging often comes from (Bob the macho man, typical bloke, is far less a likely close companion to a gay man who likes to say yas queen and put on my jewellery, even if said gay man is also a broad shouldered chap who is great with DIY and cars). Some of us might not have had it great with our families and the friends become more like family, as well. So, it can be a lot more caring and intense in these groups, and gender norms aren't as much a thing, and being together it encourages that more.

I think also, if he's questioned he's bi...he might have found he's really not into guys at all, but wants to be affectionate with them and that's frowned on and so he thought maybe he was bi. But he's not, ergo to him holding hands with other men is not essentially or exclusively a gay/bi thing. He doesn't want to sleep with them. He likes women, but he is gender non-conforming for a straight man.

So, it could be exactly as he says...but also, yeah he could be gay.

Ripples - Maybe not what your looking for. I don’t view myself as British. I’m Scottish. There is a community spirit, kindness, and welcoming to others. There will always be nasty people in life, but they are in the minority and not tolerated in my town.

But people are passing judgement on their sexuality. You’re right, it isn’t considered the norm for two heterosexual men to hold hands.

Does that mean that two heterosexual men can’t hold hands?

Ask that question to all the posters in this thread (of which there are many) who have said “he’s gay. End of”.

Gay or not, ditch him and find some compatible with you.

I think someone grabbing your hands for a conversation as you are saying goodbye at a pub is a very different thing to walking along holding hands or sitting all evening in a pub holding hands. I cannot believe how many people are insisting this guy is gay.

If I was with a group of friends and one grabbed my hand, I'd instantly think 'Uh oh, this person thinks there is some kind of spark happening here tonight'. It sounds to me like your husband's friend thought there was a vibe and held your husband's hand. If your husband may not be NT, as you said previously, it may be that he didn't pick up on this and just thought it was a friendly gesture, not realising that that really isn't typical for male friends in the UK.

Definitely what @Bluntness100 said. Sorry OP. He’s gay.

@ripples101, it is a logical fallacy to translate 'he is most likely gay' into 'two straight men CAN'T hold hands'. Of course, they can, but the fact is that the vast majority in Britain don't which is why PPs are positing that OP's DH is likely gay.

Also, let me try to help outline British culture. Philosophically, it is empiricist and individualistic (think Hobbes rather than Rousseau, think Locke and Hume rather than Kant and Hegel). In terms of behavior some of the characteristics are:

1. privacy
2. conversational focus is external (whereas, for example, in South European cultures the focus is very internal)
3. avoidance of confrontation in self and interpersonal relationships
4. apologetic (which goes hand in hand with the above)

Only after those, come behaviorally specific traits.

Culture is a 'living organism' in that it changes over time, but it takes very long periods of time for a culture to change (generations). Also, sub-cultures are usually dominant for their members over the societal cultural framework so, for example, it would be logically incorrect to base a conclusion of British culture on London's sub-culture.

Interestingly, by insisting that you can't deduce OP's DH's sexual orientation based upon a 'norm' which, in your opinion, can't be induced from individual experiences of PPs - you are demonstrating the philosophical individualism which posits that every persons experience is unique. Statistics would disagree.

Re: hand holding here's an interesting description of British body language created for teachers abroad: www.usingenglish.com/articles/british-body-language.html

My do is bi and if I saw him holding a mans hand I would think they were shagging, same as I would if he was holding a woman's.
Sorry OP x

Sending Christmas cards. I know it's dying out but I was surprised when I learnt none are sent in other European countries (try buying one in Italy!) so I think again that's English speaking world.

Uh, I've lived in 4 European countries, none of them English speaking, and christmas cards were sent in each country.

I'm surprised the small minority who think it's normal.

If he was at the bar with a woman, holding her hand, didn't want sex with the op, wasn't intimate with her, and said he was just holding her hand because they were friends everyone would be sceaming affair.

This man has confessed to homosexual feelings, he was with a man who is likely homosexual,

I don't see the difference because the person whose hand he was holding is Male not female.

The friends he was with must have been deeply uncomfortable. Cheating is cheating and if I was in a bar and a married friend of mine was with me sitting holding hands with someone, whatever gender, I'd assume cheating or some form of romantic involvement. ( unless disabled, drunk etc)

And I'd be right. Anyone saying otherwise is talking shite.

@ripples101 I agree it’s hard to put your finger on what is the essence of Britishness, when you live here. However, it tends to come more into focus if you go and live abroad, then you tend to understand it better by its absence.

As to the hand holding I do think it is odd, maybe he is gradually working himself up to telling OP he has homosexual feelings. My DH is pretty metrosexual but just wouldn’t. He and his friends tend to show affection by helping each other with practical matters, chatting and enjoying shared hobbies. Maybe that’s sad, but it seems there is still a strong barrier, in this country, against men being tactile unless in a romantic/ sexual contest. Unless maybe there’s plenty of alcohol involved and then it’s often accompanied by inevitable ribing about being gay.

@Aneley I like your post, but why am I reminded of the lecturer in gender studies in Private Eye’s From the Message Boards? Ah yes, I have deflated intellectualism. Very British that, you wouldn’t catch the French doing it.

@whataboutbob - have no idea, never watched it. :)
Though it may have something to do with me actually being a university lecturer in social sciences before deflecting (selling my soul) to the City.