Laurence Fox on Question Time

[SuckingDieselFella]

It isn't ok to try and shut anyone up with remarks about their skin colour. It doesn't matter if that skin colour is white, black or green with purple spots.

His fellow actors have been told to "denounce" him. It looks like he can wave goodbye to his career. What lovely tolerant people the ultra woke are.
www.thestage.co.uk/news/2020/laurence-fox-labelled-a-disgrace-to-industry-following-question-time-race-row/

I don't get it. Loads of you conservatives were getting angry about anti-Semitism in the Labour party and talking about how evil the left are. So anti-Semitism isn't OK but other types of bigotry are?

I mean, are we allowed to be angry about bigotry or is that too 'woke' for you? Fucking hell, a young lesbian got her head kicked in recently in Sunderland. Am I allowed to be upset about that or is that being 'woke' now?

It’s not totally unprovable though. There are techniques used in psychology, psychoanalysis, even consumer research that are able to go further in terms of accessing subconscious motivations.

The question of how unconscious bias can be measured is not settled science, and indeed there is still debate within the field of psychology whether unconscious bias really has any real effect on people's behaviour.

But even if we accept unconscious bias can be measured and has an appreciable impact on individual's behaviour, it still can't be proved or disproved in any real world scenario.

For instance, your assertion that the UK media have treated the Duchess of Sussex more negatively because of her race can neither be proved or disproved in any objective sense.

@SuckingDieselFella 'Woke' comes from AAVE. Black American English. It means 'socially conscious'. I wouldn't describe myself as woke at all, tbh.

I'm not sure whether I should be glad that you're defending Jews or not. I'm not saying I want you to hate us, I just feel a bit uncomfortable that the right love us and single us out as the Good Minority, but if you try to stand up for other minorities you're being 'woke' or whatever.

"Isn’t someone's experience enough to accept that they feel they have have subjected to racism?"

No, it isn't. In the workplace or in law there has to be evidence and it can be tricky to prove. When I experienced harassment and reported it to my line manager, I wasn't believed, even though there were witnesses and a number of people knew it was happening.

I had to deal with anti-Semitism at work and reported it. No-one did anything to help.

The extent of the racism on here is terrifying.

@PhilSwagielka

" I just feel a bit uncomfortable that the right love us and single us out as the Good Minority, but if you try to stand up for other minorities you're being 'woke' or whatever."

Nonsense. Try responding to what I wrote rather than trotting out a ready-made argument.

I genuinely don't understand what your point is other than 'anyone who says racism is bad is a woke fuckwit'.

I wish you lot got as angry about National Action and the like as you did about lefties calling out racism on TV.

You won't though.

I think what's going on here is that BAME people don't like white people to tell them what their experiences are like. However much we will all agree that racism is completely wrong, we can't say that we know what it's like to experience it.

And I can see how it might be seen as patronising to them when we go on about their ethnic identity when all they want is to be themselves and really do consider themselves as British. I'm half Czech but I don't want to talk about it all the time. I was born in this country, and I don't even speak the language. (And my Czech F was abusive so I'd rather not be associated with him anyway.)

Thankfully for me, I'm white so I don't get asked about it and I now have a British surname. Growing up, it was different as my maiden name is very Czech indeed and it led to a lot of bullying in school.

We all have our own backstories so it's up to us to decide whether our cultural roots are important to us or not. I could imagine getting hugely hacked off if I kept having to answer questions about it and fill forms constantly.

In a similar way, I can't say to my adopted DDs that I know what it's like for them to have experienced it. I know their backgrounds and I've brought them up but I really have no idea what their actual experience is, and they would rightly resent it if I claimed that I did.

Gilead “The extent of the racism on here is terrifying”

If you mean MN generally, I agree.

If you mean this thread, I’ve not seen anything racist but admittedly might have missed it.

@PhilSwagielka
You understand my point perfectly. You're looking for an argument.

And I'm not a Conservative by the way. If you want to have an intelligent discussion then you need to stop making assumptions and respond to the points being made. I'll have to assume that an intelligent discussion isn't what you're looking for.

I am not talking about the law

I taking about accepting people’s experiences of what happened when they tell you their experience

But even if we accept unconscious bias can be measured and has an appreciable impact on individual's behaviour, it still can't be proved or disproved in any real world scenario.

Not proved in the sense of holding up in a court trial or something. But we can get to the point where we can be reasonably sure it’s making a difference.

And just because it can’t be proved to that degree doesn’t mean we can shut down debate around it. It’s important to understand these issues as much as we can within the limits of what our learning allows us.

For instance, your assertion that the UK media have treated the Duchess of Sussex more negatively because of her race can neither be proved or disproved in any objective sense.

Well there are lots of side by side comparison to show that her actions are being judged very differently to the same/very similar actions of others.

However as I said upthread, the more difficult thing to untangle is the role that anti Americanism, anti feminism, suspicion of actors, Piers Morgan’s personal vendetta is playing in the different standards she’s being held to.

He is white.
He is male.
both carry with them privilege. He will have experienced it every moment of his life whether he was ever aware of it or not.
Why was he so angry about a simple truth ? It’s not been attractive to see powerful white men shouting down black women rather than at least asking a question or shutting up and listening or engaging in normal discourse. Arrogant braying bully.

@TheRealMcKenna
"The question then comes down to what is the intention here? Do those who use the term want to create a more cohesive and equal society or do they just want to pitch one group against another?"

The latter. Identity politics is a way of achieving Trotsky's aim, which is to have a society in a state of perpetual revolution.

I wish you lot got as angry about National Action

If it ever gets to the stage that National Action are allowed to espouse their views on Question Time I'm sure we'll get very angry indeed. As it is they are a tiny fringe group who have been outlawed since 2016.

@SuckingDieselFella

Yes, that’s my suspicion too - although I’ll definitely admit to being slightly biased (having just read The Madness of Crowds).

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed
"I am not talking about the law

I taking about accepting people’s experiences of what happened when they tell you their experience"

But you need to talk about the law in order for the accusations to be evidenced. Otherwise the victim can be accused of misinterpreting the situation. In my case I was treated as if I were mentally unwell when I reported the harassment. I understand this is pretty common when complaints are made in the workplace.

Would you believe a white person if they talked about being subjected to racism from non-whites? Would you assume that person was a racist?

@TheRealMcKenna I haven't got round to reading that yet but I'd like to see what his arguments are. Interestingly enough I have access to a university library and they don't stock it. The copy in my local library has a waiting list of 26 people!

Not proved in the sense of holding up in a court trial or something. But we can get to the point where we can be reasonably sure it’s making a difference.

You can point to where you think it's making a difference, but other people can equally well disagree because the facts can be interpreted in different ways, and my point is that it is very difficulty to come up with objective evidence that supports one interpretation over another. It's all hugely subjective.

Well there are lots of side by side comparison to show that her actions are being judged very differently to the same/very similar actions of others.

Yes, but as you rightly point out there are so many factors that differ between each case that it's hard to really determine how each individual factor contributes to the difference. As far as I can tell there are very few cases (if any) of overt racism towards Meghan in the media, so a lot of the evidence for racism comes down to subjective interpretation.

Do I believe black/Asian people can be prejudice yes they can be. I am aware of this from my own family

Does prejudice have the same impact in everyday life collectively for white people no

Here's food for thought: Megan Merkle is getting a bit of a 'free pass' because she is 25% black (let's not kid ourselves it's any more than this). If she WAS white she'd be getting SO much more shit!
No, it's not a race thing!

I think you may have a point, though I think Mumsnet is much kinder towards MM than the picture in RL, so it's misleading. I do think it's a lot more to do with anti-American and Hollywood than racial prejudice.

Also, the press was much nastier towards Fergie back in the day. There was another a parallel in the way the newspapers pitted her against Diana, as they're now doing between MM and Kate.

But how is she only 25% black? I really don't get that point when her mum is black; she isn't mixed rave, is she?

Mixed race, that was supposed to say.