Laurence Fox on Question Time

[SuckingDieselFella]

It isn't ok to try and shut anyone up with remarks about their skin colour. It doesn't matter if that skin colour is white, black or green with purple spots.

His fellow actors have been told to "denounce" him. It looks like he can wave goodbye to his career. What lovely tolerant people the ultra woke are.
www.thestage.co.uk/news/2020/laurence-fox-labelled-a-disgrace-to-industry-following-question-time-race-row/

“Woke bollocks nonsense”

There’s nothing new about woke. It’s about believing society should be fair to you regardless of your race/ethnicity/beliefs/sex etc. And being mindful of unconscious bias. What the hell is wrong with that?

why can't Meghan identify as white if she wanted to?

I don’t believe what I’m reading on here sometimes.

You don’t ‘identify’ as a race. Meghan is mixed race. That’s a fact.

And from a racism POV it may not be particularly relevant how she’s sees herself anyway. It’s how others see her.

Because Megan Markle would never pass as a white woman

She is a woman of colour so will be subjected to racism and prejudice

in real lfe I dodn't know anyone who ahs suffered form outright racism.

And you seem to sue that as proof that it doesn't happen. Good Lord.

You asked for examples . OK, I am a teacher and have taught with two black colleagues who have been called 'niggers' behind their back and to their face. I have taught with an Asian , female colleague who was relentlessly mocked and vilified for what she wore and her voice. I have helped a German teacher clean graffiti about Nazis if her desks. All these things really happened. I have been called names because of my nationality. Racism absolutely exists. What a crass comment spoken from a position of , presumably, ignorance or maybe even privilege...

I've tried to talk to other white people about it by asking them to tell me the last time they had to think about being white (before of course we started discussing race) or the last time they thought someone had discriminated against them because they were white

Interesting. I am white. Three incidents that come immediately to mind:-

Being attacked completely unprovoked in a Tesco express and called "an evil white bitch". He kicked me as he walked past me. Then threw a tin of something at me and then shoved me hard into a shelf. Clear mental health issues.

Working in a London NHS hospital where the divide between various admin staff was directly related to colour. I can't use BAME here because the Asian admin staff were in their own self regulated group too. It was very heightened at times and accusations of racism were thrown around intermittently. I will not say who made the most accusations here as it seems pointless to do so.

When I was giving birth to my first child, again in a London hospital. I was handled roughly and painfully and treated with dismissive annoyance by two midwives who were POC. I wondered if my being white was an issue at the time and since.

There are others but nothing as clear cut as the above.

Apologies for typos! I am sure you get the drift.

People get too hung up on the privilege bit of the term hence the confusion for some - eg but white people are poor, walked on, killed etc

Yes, people do get hung up on the use of the word ‘privilege’. I see the endless explanations on here about ‘it’s not about x or y, it’s about z’. Either way, is the strategy working? Is the use of the term causing white people to ‘question their privilege’ or is it causing them to feel really pissed off with the use of the term? My suspicion is that it’s the latter - and everyone knows it.

The question then comes down to what is the intention here? Do those who use the term want to create a more cohesive and equal society or do they just want to pitch one group against another?

Many people are starting to suspect that it’s the latter.

As a white women I have never experienced any racism, but I have experienced sexual abuse and harassment and I witness misogyny nearly every day!

Racism often plays at a subconscious level. There are lots of people out there who are racially discriminating against people in subtle ways and aren’t even aware they’re doing it.

The problem with is that it's completely unprovable one way or the other. By definition no-one has access to someone's subconscious thought processes, not even the person themself. So anyone can say, "you're behaving in this way because you have an unconscious bias" and the person on the receiving end has no way to defend themselves.

And people get angry about this, because to be accused of racism in our society often results in serious negative consequences for the accused, but racism is now framed in such a way that it's impossible to deny. Indeed if a person does deny it then that in itself will just be used against them as a sign that they are acting based on 'white privilege'.

Unsurprisingly, many people find this whole chain of reasoning to be fundamentally unjust.

As for Fox, some things he has said suggest he is like one of those raving old aristocratic stereotypes, ranting about 'newcomers' and 'new blood' (like that awful Longleat woman) and is a bit peed off that a newer breed of actors are now in the circle of friends of the social elite (eg invited to weddings). Everyone knows that acting on stage or screen often requires certain privileges to get one's foot in the door (Cressida Bonas springs to mind) : not least money and connections. Cumberbatch has also spoken of this. It seems often these moneyed actors can't accept this themselves.

However, what makes Fox different from Cumberbatch, Norton, and Redmayne is that they are plainly very very talented actors (Norton in particular is the only one who can convincingly inhabit a non posh role) where Fox is perhaps the next league or two down. He is on record as blaming others for this and having some sour grapes, rather than considering he is a rather bland actor. If he cannot see that being a Fox, having a lot of money, having access to connections and having the ability as a youngster to travel freely and widely to attend drama school/auditions etc is an advantage then he is deluded. Of course, talent in acting , I am sure, as with many things can also be inherited.

LF reminds me of many, many men who are to be found on online dating sites. You end up getting sucked into a three-hour circular argument about the definition of racism and why it turns out that they personally are in fact the most oppressed individual on the planet ... it’s tiresome.

But I do think the language of ‘privilege’ is not a good way of communicating and debating these issues to a mass audience. It may work better in smaller and more specialist groups but for TV debate, that woman on QT would have done a lot better to just throw a lot of facts back at him - rather than resorting to identity politics, which is only ever going to get people’s backs up and provoke a hostile and unconstructive response. People stop listening when they feel attacked for something they personally can’t help.

And I too didn’t know MM was mixed race until the wedding. But I hadn’t paid much attention to all the media coverage before that.

The problem with is that it's completely unprovable one way or the other. By definition no-one has access to someone's subconscious thought processes, not even the person themself.

It’s not totally unprovable though. There are techniques used in psychology, psychoanalysis, even consumer research that are able to go further in terms of accessing subconscious motivations.

The more difficult thing is untangling the role race is playing from the other subconscious reasons we discriminate against people.

And while I take your point that people don’t like being called racist, that doesn’t take away from the fact that it’s still playing a significant role in how people are treated. Overtly and covertly, at a conscious and sub conscious level.

Irma I find people patronise me in similar ways on MN. Less so IRL.

Someone mentioned not having to think about race all the time. I have to think about it every time I leave the flat, sure. But 20 years ago, it wasn’t so bad. It’s the identity politics crowd who made it 100 times worse. They won’t let BAME people just be Londoners or English etc. (I won’t comment on other countries as I don’t know).

Even my 81 year old mother is asking me why she’s suddenly having to explain herself after decades of being accepted as English.

I’ve bored people with before, but my friend’s son turned 18 a few years ago, had to fill in all the forms you do when you start work etc...and came to me very upset because he couldn’t understand why ticking “black British” was so bloody important to everyone. He’s just
British.

Please God we never reach a point where people are forcibly psychoanalysed when they refute charges of racism...

I was impressed with him, he was correct to say that the woman calling him male, white and privileged is racist. He was correct about his fellow lobbies preaching about things, but then flying long journeys to get to places ( Emma Thompson that’s you). He was correct that authorities don’t take action in case they get called racist ( Rotherham etc, ) he actually talked a lot of sense.

Those that denounce him are the ones who are wrong to do so. This is a free country, we can all have opinions, and if you disagree with them then fine, but don’t act like children, that’s no example

Both as bad as each other.

I think many of us (not all) will accept when a woman complaining of some indirect sexism we all have been subjected to those creepy looks or being patronized in the way we have been spoken to because this is what we have all (or vast majority) have experienced

Yet many won’t accept this when racism is spoken about - the air of judgement or look of distain will be questioned

Isn’t someone's experience enough to accept that they feel they have have subjected to racism ?

@ElloBrian
I agree, she did get people's backs up. Probably because she is a university lecturer in this subject and it felt like she was lecturing.

@Snowy111
"“Woke bollocks nonsense”

There’s nothing new about woke. It’s about believing society should be fair to you regardless of your race/ethnicity/beliefs/sex etc. And being mindful of unconscious bias. What the hell is wrong with that?"

That isn't what woke is at all. Woke is believing that you are an authority on racism, sexism, and other forms of discrimination. It's usually practised by white middle class people, who lecture others (usually other white middle class people) on their behaviour. It isn't about discrimination at all, it's about policing other people, particularly in the workplace and on social media. It's also about believing that you are free of prejudice yourself but these types have far more hatred than the average person. They're happy using language like 'gammon', 'TERF', etc. And they believe in religious freedom but not for Christians or Jews.

The fact that she is an academic specialising in this subject was what made her resort to identity politics particularly unfortunate - if anyone was in a position to wheel out a load of actual facts and stats, it should be her.

Thanks for those who engaged with my posts in the spirit of discussing different viewpoints

I'll be ignoring the one poster who is still here 8 threads in with the same superior tone ...

*Playing the race card

Played the race card

Playing the race card*

This thread is full of dog whistle racism.
Pretending not to 'see colour' is another example.

Isn’t someone's experience enough to accept that they feel they have have subjected to racism?

No I don’t think it is. Most of the time, but not always. Their perception might be wrong. Their own issues might interfere with their judgement.

However, they are a more reliable witness and much more worth listening to than the person subjecting them to it.

I seen this thread last night and decided to watch it.

He is the epitome of white middle class privilege, however that shouldn’t mean he’s not entitled to an opinion on the subject.

I don’t think he articulated certain parts of his argument particularly well. I think he meant that Britain is a society that is considered more tolerant of other cultures etc... and I consider this to be true (and I’m proud of that) and I’m most certainly not a white middle class male.

Regarding the royals, I don’t personally feel it is based on racism as such. There was a lady of colour on the show and also shared this view. I do think there are elements of racism, but I think that’s because the press are horrendous and will pick on ANYTHING. If she was white she’d still get as much stick.

Kate’s had her fair share of backlash for being a ‘commoner’. I think the fundamental difference is that Kate kept quiet, where I don’t think M feels she should have to put up with this (she’s right, it’s disgusting the way the press carry on). I think she’s very opinionated and whilst that’s not a bad thing in general, you can be as outspoken when you’re in the royal family. It’s not a coincidence that royals aren’t allowed to share their political views!

I certainly think her family fuel the fire and what kind of sister/father carry on the way they have is disgusting. They create a field day for the press.

I agree with what he says about people using the racist card if you don’t agree with them though. It’s thrown about all the time. I feel there an assumption that you aren’t allowed to have an opinion if you are white. That’s utterly ridiculous.

Racism is not ok, regardless of what form it takes. If I see it then I’ll pull it up!

Really

And what would their own issues be ?

I know when I am being patronized by a male work colleague by how he is talking to me

So why wouldn’t say a black woman know the person talking down to her because of their racist views