AIBU to not allow dc to travel alone with DH to his country?

[BellaBicycle]

Our marriage is over, we are planning our separation and divorce. DH is from an EU country and wants to take all 3 dc there during half term to see his elderly family. DC have citizenships of that country. Given how things are I have said no, I am uncomfortable with it, but his family can travel here to see them, he says they are too old and infirm. He had wanted to take them for a while. I just feel I can’t risk it, don’t trust him, and especially as he got them the citizenships last year. He told me I am crazy and there’s actually something wrong with me mentally for refusing, and I shouldn’t be unreasonable when he has sick parents.
AIBU?

@bellacycle - did we have the same h?😳

Ignore the stuff about xenophobia. You just ensure that you and your kids are safe.

I was told by ex I had no rights as a mother.

Ds school aware and when x wanted to take ds out of the country in term time, the head gave us permission to let him go as long I was going to.

Tell the school.

Sorry, that last line should have read

So we do know that he’s NOT a good father

If he can prove to the court that he would be planning to return to the UK, he will be allowed to take them, and the costs for you both just for that will be in the thousands. The application for citizenship has been going on for the whole time brexit has been talked about- it doesn't necessarily prove anything. If he has a job, house, ties to the uk, it's all seen as proof to t return. Your best bet would be to go too, keep the passports, and stay in a hotel for the trip, returning at the same time as the kids if you're genuinely concerned. Any country that's a Hague signatory will assist with returning children home, although process is also lengthy, but this could also (rightly or wrongly) be seen as you being obstructive if he meets the criteria to be remaining in the U.K.

@reluctantbrit - depends on the country. Uk allows dual nationality but not all Eu countries do, and some are dependent on residency.

Yes, it would of course be hugely beneficial for those children to have an EU passport but op seems less concerned about this but rather that her marriage appears to both parties to be over and she feels her h wants to take the children and not return.

The Xenophobia accusations are a bit of a red herring. There have been plenty of cases where the british spouse (of a British spouse) have absconded with kids to another country.

IMHO I think the op should accompany the kids to her h’s family.

@IM0GEN - my dc doesn’t speak his df language. Kids are more likely to pick up the dm language.

H wasn’t at home much and wasn’t consistent in speaking to him in his mother tongue.

Absolutely not. Do you have their passports or does he? If he does I'd be declaring them lost and getting new ones.

Definitely get legal advice on how to stop him and do whatever is necessary to prevent it.

Brexti shouldn’t change any treaties regarding children as they are not EU related.

^
Completely delusional, of course it will change.

Listen to your gut OP, travelling to his country is one thing, but above all it's his history of abuse and your knowledge of the alcohol consumption in his family. To protect your children you would try to avoid this visit even if it was in the UK, right?

Woe is me A parent cannot kidnap their own children. OP, i wouldnt allow him to take them, you know what will happen

Do not let him take them abroad. Given what you have said about him, there’s a good chance he would not let them return & there might not be much you could do. Stay strong

Don't let him take them!

I know this doesn't apply in this particular case (and for the record OP I would be very very wary about your circumstances if I was faced with it), but just for interest Australia has what is called the Hague Convention. Both parents have to agree to have a child taken with one parent out of the country. People have been stopped and disallowed to board aircraft as both parents hadn't been with the child/ren.

www.ag.gov.au/FamiliesAndMarriage/Families/InternationalFamilyLaw/Pages/HagueConventionOnTheCivilAspectsOfInternationalChildAbduction.aspx

Sorry, just read through - someone has already mentioned Hague Convention

lowandlucky- of course parents can (and do) abduct their own children.
That's why border control agents ask for permission from the other parent often when children are travelling with one parent only, and why agents are told to be extra vigilant when they see it.
It also cuts both ways, and if the OP withholds visitation without going through the legal process, it won't be her husband in the wrong. She needs to be very careful and not follow most of the advice on this thread.
She should start by speaking to someone actually qualified to give advice (try prh7 on legal advice- a family lawyer) to begin to make a case against allowing cross border visitation.
Just saying he refused to take me to hospital and called me a cunt won't be enough

For everyone saying the OP can't stop him, or that parents can't abduct their children here is the actual law: www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad - it's very clear.

Mumsnet is bonkers sometimes.

YANBU. Trust your gut instinct , no way would I allow this in your shoes.

OP go with them or make up an excuse so only your eldest can go.

I knew someone who wouldn't let her ex-husband take all her children but allowed him to take one of them. Don't know what excuse she gave but this is so he couldn't go to court and take all the children. He then tried to run of with that child. The paternal grandmother and aunt stepped in and put him back on a plane to the UK.

Do you have a Child Arrangement Order that states they live with you? Anything legally in writing that states they live with you in the UK?

No I don’t have a child arrangement order.
I can look into getting one.

He has no job ties to the uk he works from home but his job is located in a neighbouring country to his own country. He has not applied for settled status says he doesn’t want it or need it, as if I divorce him he will leave the country and live either where his work is, or in his home country.

Do you think he would refuse to bring the children back if he took them this time?

Does he own or co-own property here?

The law states you need permission of other parent to take child out of the country. We’ve never experience this though so it’s not reliable.

Op - the fact he’s stating he won’t apply for SS says he’s going to leave the uk permanently. You need to have a conversation on how he intends to parent from overseas and see what he says.

@BlouseAndSkirt

Yes there’s a possibility he will refuse, I’ve seen he’s looked at a school there, found the prospectus. He co owns house here with me. And has a small house in his country.

@howrudeforme

He says that he wants me to bring dc to visit him in his country once we have split up, every fortnight. And he will come here sometimes to visit as well. And he will see them on face time in between. I’ve told him they can’t travel like that it’s too much for me and them.

Not a chance. And I wouldnt go with them either as unless you're with them the entire time he could still take them.

Even if you werent suspicious I'd say no on the basis of the heavy drinking.

Op trust your instincts. Look into prohibitive steps order. I have looked into it for myself but due to not going to the police for the abuse, I can't meet the requirements needed to apply for a prohibited steps order. Also mediation is part of one and I would need to disclose my address. All things I cannot do as I fled domestic violence by moving away.

The bull from some pp on this thread that the courts would recognise abuse are pure bullshit, even with police involvement and years of incidents and police attendance, the courts do not vary in their application towards abusive men. So if the non abusive father would get the right to take the child abroad as he should, the abusive father will also get that right.

Get a child arrangement order in place, op. Then going forward you will probably have to go with the children. Do not let it get to the stage where a court orders you to allow the children to go but you cannot accompany them. It will always be better if you go with them.

Lots of misdirection about xenophobia and posters like GreytExpectation and Oblada just not having any experience and talking complete shit but ignore them op.

This is not about double standards or when one parent refuses permission for the other to take a child abroad. This about protecting your children as their is nothing you can do in most counties and most embassies will not help if your child is held by a parent in another country.

I have no rights to my child legally in my ex husband country and many countries have the same and similar rules about non resident/non citizen parents of dual heritage children. My ex has obtained passport for my child for his country, not once but twice.

The op' children do already have another citizenship. This is something to be worried about and the naysayers on here are ridiculous in their right on, namalt and "you are being xenophobic" bullshit.

They are deliberately mixing up a situation where

1. the children can be taken to another country where one parent has no rights and cannot get them back.

2. To a situation that some mothers find themselves in where their ex who sees the child under contact arrangement refuses to give permission for a 2 week holiday abroad as they are also a parent who has parental responsibility and they like to exert control over their ex not having a holiday abroad.

1. Also the situation where quite a few mums have posted that their feckless smoking dope and heavy drinking ex is taking the kids abroad in the summer and they cannot stop them but they are worried for their kids safety.

Posters are mixing up these situations on purpose to shout about double standards where the only thing in common is a parent and the word abroad but the situation and therefore advice would be different. Not because mumsnet is man hating but because unfortunately most of the people in the wrong in the situations posted about frequently are the male (ex) .

He says that he wants me to bring dc to visit him in his country once we have split up, every fortnight. And he will come here sometimes to visit as well. And he will see them on face time in between. I’ve told him they can’t travel like that it’s too much for me and them

Hmm: I think I would agree breezily to taking them on regular visits until he is up and gone, and then not do it. It is impractical and the expense would be great, presumably.

We are not talking Calais / just over the border in Belgium, in this home country / neighbouring country, I presume?

Was the school prospectus from when he wanted you all to move there?

I am not trying to dissuade you from trying to stop him taking them, but as Pp have said you could pay ££££ in court and still lose. Might be better to play sneaky. Agree informally to the once a fortnight plan, say ‘yes, let’s both take them in a visit’, or in the course of his long visit you take them over and stay in a BnB, then take them back. Encourage him to leave...