Ex left toddler in hotel alone to go bar, so wrong?!

[Nothappy83]

Hi all, feeling really sad (and bit shocked) my ex let slip that during his access last weekend with our 3 year old son, that he left him in the hotel room alone (asleep) so that he, my ex, could go and join the lads for pints at the bar in the same hotel.

I really don't feel happy about this -- for one everyone knows any old staff have duplicate keys to hotel rooms, could've been abducted (unlikely but still) also could have woken up, he does wake up from time to time still, so could have been scared and or got hurt, any number of scenarios.

Ex says he was checking on him every ten mins -- I don't believe that, he doesn't draw breath for that long when having a drink with friends. Plus anything can happen in that time.

I just keep thinking of him alone in room & ex downstairs laughing & drinking & I feel so, so crushed.

I'm so confused as to why he would do this as he seems such a doting dad otherwise. Is well educated, from a lovely family, professional job etc.

Some background, I also caught him once nipping to the corner shop opposite our house when son was just a newborn (he had left him sleeping in Moses basket argued it was minutes). Also, on holidays with his friends there has been conflict as they all wanted to leave kids in tents etc whilst they drank in other area of campsite -- I disagreed and stayed back with ours.

He has also tried to blame my anxiety (pretty low) I pointed out it's against law (?) To leave kids who could be at risk, so not my anxiety at all.

I feel like I want to ban him from taking him away again as feel he's broken my trust 💔 plus with shop gate as newborn not the first time.

Do people think I'm overreacting, or is it just plain wrong?

Sorry for long post! Just can't get it off my mind.

I would argue that he HAS broken the law. It is an offence to leave a child alone if it places them at risk. The NSPCC guidelines state that babies, toddlers, extremely young children should not be left alone. Obviously it is considered that these children WILL be at risk if left alone. Although these are only guidelines, it very much puts the onus on someone to show what safeguards were put in to remove risk (eg baby monitor). So, in general, leaving a 3 yr old alone IS unlawful. He could argue the 10min checks mitigate. I wouldn’t believe him either on this though, and anyway, a lot can happen in 10mins.

But that’s one thing. What to do practically? He needs to realise this IS unacceptable. It is NOT your anxiety. You need to impress on him the legal position. Don’t argue the issue too much. As far as you’re concerned this is NOT safe, the law backs you up, you’re not going to argue the issue, it’s self evident. He needs to agree with you suitable arrangements for contact that you consider safe.

Why was he in a hotel? I think you need to agree a place for contact visits that is more appropriate, with no bar. This is his time with his D.C. Unless he has a babysitter, he needs to stay with his D.C. 24/7. If contact HAS to be at this hotel, (can’t think why), he needs to check babysitting service, or you could. Staying with a family member would be ideal - then you’d also have the presence of others.

I would not stop contact. I would also not insist on supervised contact without at least an attempt to agree suitable arrangements first. Chances are if he’s generally a good dad, he will feel a bit guilty about it if he thinks about it. The arrangements for contact NEED to work - for your DCs sake. So, tell your DH that for that to happen, he must respect your entirely reasonable wishes. D.C. is only 3. You will need to co operate re contact for the rest of DC’s childhood. It is MASSIVELY in DCs interests for that to be done in a civil, reasonable way, and good contact with his DF is valuable and necessary. The law also backs that up.

Just to say, my experience has been that DFs do not have the inbuilt risk assessment abilities of DMs! A heck of a generalisation, with many exceptions, obviously. My DH is a good DF but he has missed certain dangers on a few occasions. The recognition often comes after the event.

only read the first page - but why are you minimising this OP?

he DID put your child in potential danger, so heave forbid there was a fire and you had to evacuate the hotel - you cannot go back to your room? what happens then?
what happened if your child woke up and became hysterical? bullshit he checked every 10 minutes

if i was in your shoes, you should be supervising until he learns how to parent - his parents have got sod allto do with it, no matter how"lovely"they are

Please stop telling op to decline all access. Please read #thecourtsaid first and understand that if she does that she could risk losing everything. It's not how it should be, its how it is. I bloody wish mothers could keep their children safe but the system at present punishes us (and our children) if we do. I was treated like an awful criminal for asking a court to decide if exH was safe (after my son made disclosures of awful abuse to me and his head teacher). There is so much naivety on this thread. I was there once, I thought the family court was there to keep children safe. It isn't (at the moment).

Thats awful what if the child would have woken up? in a strange place? could have wandered out a door, fallen out a window ect.

@NellieEllie It depends what leaving a young child alone means. Everyone leaves young kids alone in a different room in the same house. What is okay depends on the context.

And yes advising OP to deny access is dangerous advice.

Haven't RTFT but wanted to say my ex did this with my son until the age of 9. It was taken very seriously by cafcass when we went to court for the Child Arrangement Order.

Sadly @NeverTwerkNaked is right
I would only refuse access once you irrefutable and corroborated proof and no I have consulted a solicitor as well as social services with the evidence

The courts and the system manifestly do not do what is in the best interests of the children or indeed cere about the psychological well being of the resident parent normally the mother.

It's totally wrong. As a girl of 8, my DSis (6) and I suffered a serious sexual assault in a hotel, involving a hotel guest and a staff member. Obviously, that's a very unlikely event, and involved an unusual set of circumstances, but I'm saying that you can't know that an unsupervised child will be safe in a hotel.

It's certainly not okay for your ex to leave your DS to go drinking with his mates.

when I was a child ( late 50s/early 60s) I was frequently left in hotel rooms with a glass of juice, a bag of crisps and a book while my parents went out for dinner . It was very common but I was scared stiff . Never left my own children ( 1980s) and not aware of friends going so . Then MM happened and I thought everyone had got message however DH and I were on holiday recently and noticed that several couples who we saw with very young children during the day , were dining alone in the evening or with other couples . The hotel didn’t have a baby sitting service . Wondering if people are starting to forget about MM and become complacent?

Nobody is saying it’s right
I hope
But dealing with this lax parenting in the context of a CAO is not so straightforward. I also suspect that the sort of man that deliberately does this is capable of playing a system and denigrating the mother to suit his own ends.

What he did was a dangerous thing to do. Maybe it isn't enough to deny him unsupervised access to your DS, but I really do think you should get legal advice. If the OP was another adult asking about a scenario like this, they would be advised to report this to SS.

If you want the courts to look at access then take photos showing how far the room is from where their father was drinking. But it is unlikely access would be denied based on leaving children in this situation on one occasion. I say that based on knowing far worse situations where the courts have allowed access. Things have to be very severe before courts insist on supervised access, and even worse to deny access altogether.

My parents did this when I was little. Abroad too. I remember waking up once when we was in Benidorm and wondering where they were. I let myself out of the room and downstairs where I found them at the bar. I was in my PJs. Apparently I was 6 at the time, and was taken back to bed. Anything could have happened. My mum will say it was "normal" back then, but I find it quite horrifying! There no way I (or anyone else) would put my kids in that situation. I would be allowing ex to have him.

I wouldn't do it, and I wouldn't expect my ex to either however the hotel I used to work at it used to happen a lot. Parents would leave baby in the room and come down to dinner, normally would have a monitor or something but still.

Did he use a monitor or anything to keep an eye or to be able to hear him? Not saying it's right if he did but just to get a bigger picture. Totally understand why you feel like you do, I would too.

And if this had happened and reported to SS, then the most SS would do is give the parent a stern talking to. Unless the hotel is massive is a big complex.

@adviceneededon It was normal.

@karencantobe I have no doubt it was normal to some. We were also left at Butlins using the listening service. I just find it horrifying that people still do it now. Times change.

@Lizzie0869 I know where you are coming from. But bonkers as it may sounds, parenting behaviour that would certainly merit reporting to SS is considered perfectly fine by Cafcass. It's a brutal contradiction in the system.

I was a child in the 1960s and was never left alone like that, nor were my friends or family. I remember the adults taking turns sitting with the children while the others went out - or being taken to venues with family rooms where children were allowed in.

I do remember being on holiday one year and the couple in the next apartment left a small child alone and he screamed and sobbed for ages. My mother told them if they did it again she was calling the police - they packed up and left. It was so unusual it's stuck in my mind.

I'm so confused as to why he would do this as he seems such a doting dad otherwise. Is well educated, from a lovely family, professional job etc.

So were Madeleine McCann's parents!

Supervised visits I would have thought would be advisable or parenting classes or accommodate a night out with his friends, so leaving your DS alone is not an option.

If my ex did this I would never trust him with my DC unsupervised again. Leaving a ten year old is one thing but a toddler is far too young. It’s not as though he popped out in an emergency either, he went to get pissed with his mates. Dickhead.

Oh and if you have anxiety, doing this to you is a shitty trick.

Think about that.

I think you'll have a hard time trying to prevent him getting access here, to be honest, but I'd see a solicitor and get some legal advice. At least record it with one because it gives a picture of his parenting.

And screenshot the messages in case he deletes them.

Could you go to a mediator with him (a solicitor could help you find one) and discuss what's ok and what isn't? It would be cheaper than anything more formal and you would at least know you did your best to get the issue debated and written down in a calm way.

Your ex needs to get a Sitters account too. There's simply no excuse for 'couldn't find a babysitter' these days unless you won't pay, are very rural or leave it to the absolute last minute.

This was not normal 15 years ago. Or even 40 years ago.

As babies we were sleeping in the pram at the side of the table while our parents ate out on holidays.