Ex left toddler in hotel alone to go bar, so wrong?!

[Nothappy83]

Hi all, feeling really sad (and bit shocked) my ex let slip that during his access last weekend with our 3 year old son, that he left him in the hotel room alone (asleep) so that he, my ex, could go and join the lads for pints at the bar in the same hotel.

I really don't feel happy about this -- for one everyone knows any old staff have duplicate keys to hotel rooms, could've been abducted (unlikely but still) also could have woken up, he does wake up from time to time still, so could have been scared and or got hurt, any number of scenarios.

Ex says he was checking on him every ten mins -- I don't believe that, he doesn't draw breath for that long when having a drink with friends. Plus anything can happen in that time.

I just keep thinking of him alone in room & ex downstairs laughing & drinking & I feel so, so crushed.

I'm so confused as to why he would do this as he seems such a doting dad otherwise. Is well educated, from a lovely family, professional job etc.

Some background, I also caught him once nipping to the corner shop opposite our house when son was just a newborn (he had left him sleeping in Moses basket argued it was minutes). Also, on holidays with his friends there has been conflict as they all wanted to leave kids in tents etc whilst they drank in other area of campsite -- I disagreed and stayed back with ours.

He has also tried to blame my anxiety (pretty low) I pointed out it's against law (?) To leave kids who could be at risk, so not my anxiety at all.

I feel like I want to ban him from taking him away again as feel he's broken my trust 💔 plus with shop gate as newborn not the first time.

Do people think I'm overreacting, or is it just plain wrong?

Sorry for long post! Just can't get it off my mind.

"I worked in kids provision before kids provision was regulated in the the early 90s's." Oh Christ. Please tell me you've retired

And they are only the times you know about.

My children are in their 30s and its not something I would have ever done and I dont believe my parents ever did this either , so I dont agree with the poster who said this was normal 15 years ago

@karencantobe
It’s scary isn’t it really. With all the talk of snowflake kids and over cautious parents, I think it can diminish the shocking vulnerability and exposure that kids had when I was growing up and still happens. It was all normalized. I remember even when safeguarding came in and there was lots of ‘what? Do you have to get police checked if you are a babysitter? What nonsense etc’ - but now I see how neglectful people like my parents were. I’d never say that to them, as they are lovely! But so normalized, they let us be in several vulnerable situations. However even they never left me alone as a three year old! We got bundled all into one room at parties on a very regular basis instead.

@NeverTwerkNaked sorry to hear this! Hope all ok now

My parents would never have done this and neither would I or my DP so I definitely don't think it's acceptable now or 40 years ago.

How terrifying for a toddler to wake in a strange room and have no one there - that's the very least he would be put through.

I see nothing wrong with what he did.

Totally unacceptable. Anything could have happened. I wouldn't let them have any more overnights.

@crustycrab why do you say that? I am well aware of how careful you have to be when looking after other people's kids. Everyone who works with kids knows you have to be much more careful than you might be with your own children.
So I have teenagers. I let them go out places on their own that I would not if I was looking after them as a worker.

Safeguarding and regulation of childcare was welcomed by many workers including myself. I remember arguing with the local authority who employed me about things like child ratios, it was great when these became law. I attended some of the initial consultation events with workers about what should be included in the law.

And yes it was some parents who did not see the point of regulation who complained bitterly because in many cases the costs went up of childcare. I did not know any staff who did not welcome them.

This was never acceptable - even in the 80s!

@angemorange There is a difference between acceptable and normal. 40 years ago it would have been normal, although some parents would not have thought it was acceptable.

Just in the same way plenty of parents thought kids being left to sit outside the pub with pop and crisps while their parents drinking inside was neglect, but it was also normal.

@karencantobe I can imagine that there is a high bar for legal access being stopped. However I think there can be a powerful message by a parent saying that without legal authority, they are not just going to hand their over if they have major concerns.

I have a kind of similar situation. My child has been bullied by a young family member when he’s been in Ex DPs care. DP does not see it and won’t acknowledge it. It’s very hard for me to prove. I’ve taken the stance that I will not allow Ex to have DS when this family member is around or only if I am there to supervise. I’ve made this clear, and of course, was told by DP that I cannot dictate to him what he does with our child.

He could bring me to court over it.

But he hasn’t so far. And I’ve taken this decision as I thought, my number one job is to protect my child. I don’t care who doesn’t like it, and if it comes to it I’d be prepare to stand up in court and say why. If I’m forced to let them be together legally of course there is nothing that I can do. However I will have tried my best as a mother to make sure DS is properly cared for. DS is very vulnerable so that is one reason that I am even more zealous.

40 years ago it would have been normal

I don’t think that’s true. More normal perhaps. Normal in certain social situations.

But not ‘the norm’ at all.

This is not acceptable at all. I would report it if I were you, someone else needs to be aware that this has happened other than you. My partner's parents were very young and irresponsible when they had him, and they left him several times in the apartment at 3 years old by himself so they could go drinking in a neighbouring apartment block. He is 33 now and still remembers screaming out the window for them to come back to him, he cried so much he passed out on the floor. Absolutely not OK.

@WildChristmas I understand why you have done what you have. Your ex has decided not to take it further so it is fine. But these situations can go badly wrong if the ex decides to fight it in court.
Just be wary. It is easy for people on MN to say things like deny access, but it can go badly against you. It is always better to try and work things out without court involvement. And if you can't, get legal advice before going down the denying access route.

I say it Karen because your thinking appears to be all over the place and quite rigid at the same time. Scary to think someone so erratic could be involved in policy implementation. Everyone believes they are great at what they do but the things you are saying are simply untrue in my experience. People in a position of power claiming that the current adult/child ratios are wonderful aren't thinking of every setting in which children are "looked after". They aren't thinking of the difficulties involved in "looking after" certain children.

Your comparison of a kids club to a listening service is bizarre.

Also, your belief that it was ever the norm to leave children is wrong. Parents always have and always will neglect their children. You've actually allowed yourself to be conditioned to think that this was more acceptable than having your child in a pram accompany you for an evening meal.

Dangerous

I am in my 40s. I remember a camping trip to an island on Loch lomond. A GROUP of adults all left their children, a variety of primary school ages, asleep in tents on the beach whilst they were elsewhere on the island at a pub. These were allegedly intelligent adults. Ridiculously dangerous and no, for this and many reasons I will never trust my parents' generation with childcare.
I'd just not allow unsupervised visits anymore as he doesn't appear to be very aware of risk factors for a young child.

Does he even want this much access-going to hotels with his mates then going to an event getting his mum to look after ds-doesnt sound like hes bothered tbh

@crustycrab You are misunderstanding my posts.
Yes staff who work with kids were happy when the first regulations came in with child adult ratios. Of course not everyone in power liked them. And of course they are not high enough for every child. But I was talking about the difference amongst staff working when there were no child ratios legally, and suddenly there were some. I was not talking about now.

I did not say a kids club was like a listening service, I was talking about what was seen as normal. Reading comprehension again.

Yes people have always neglected kids. But generally hotels and resorts do not institutionalise neglect unless it as seen as normal. You can argue until you are blue in the face that listening services were not normal, when the reality was many hotels and resorts offered them.

@karencantobe those are good points. I was careful not to ‘deny’ access, however I made it clear how I felt and said that young family member should not be around unsupervised.

I wonder if OP should consult health visitor and a solicitor - and give him a more formal notification that what he does is not acceptable and that she needs to be reassured that their child will not be in that or similar situation again?

Saying that if he needs to be out drinking then access can be changed so that happens away from contact time?

That isn’t denying access. If he refuses to comply she could check her situation again or ask social services? They are not likely to take her kids off her for raising a safety issue, quite the opposite I would think?

@FreedomfromPE You cannot just insist on supervised access. That is not how access works.

I did when my ex was letting my children cross risky toads too young. He needs to learn parenting skills and show willing a suitable adult doesn't have to be a family worker.

40 years ago this would have been normal

I was born in 1962. It wasn't even normal then. I was never left alone until I was nine and I was with my sister who was 11. I look back at that and think it's odd but we were both very sensible and had a diamond for a NDN.

That is why there is such a thing as baby sitters. If this was normal there would be no such thing

This was before poor MM but I agree it seems unbelievable now. Was chatting to DD and her husband at Christmas, he was saying he had heard people used to leave babies in their prams in the garden and how irresponsible it was. I said when my eldest was a baby, nearly 50 years ago, it was quite normal to park your pram outside a shop while you did your shopping and people in Coronation St type housing would leave them in their pram on the pavement by the front door. This wasn't just me, well I had a garden so never put them out the front of the house but I did leave them outside shops, it was common where I lived. It does sound bizarre now and I can't imagine how I did it.

Hi all thanks so much for kind responses, as a few have pointed out I don't have the power to just cease unsupervised contact, that would have to be decided in a court a long process which would first involve mediation etc. And I've had an informal chat with a friend's cousin who works in family law on the phone this am and she says it's unlikely a court would revoke or drastically change his access based on this behaviour alone. As it's actually not illegal (mind boggling I know) it's only illegal if something happens to them as a result of being left at risk 😣

I also wouldn't want my son not to see his dad, his dad has him 3 nights each week without issue at home, and even when I pick him up from nursery he says "where's daddy" and has already been struggling with less contact with his dad since we split 6 months ago, ie from seeing him all week to just 3 x. Sleeping over is his favourite bit. (Not sure my ex deserves such an adoring fan in my son 😣)

Friend's cousin who works in family law said what I can do right now, is pay for a solicitor consultation and pay for a one off letter to be written to him outlining that what he did was child neglect & has been reported to hv etc, and that access could be at risk if it happens again, a threat in essence. Which in the official form of a letter from solicitor, over from me, I believe will be enough to scare him silly.

I am also going to say no to nights away now or holidays for a while, again don't have power to do this I've been told, and he could take me to court (and could afford to as earns v well! I am poor 😣 but will scrabble few hundred for solicitor letters etc) But think it would show him a consequence of what he did just by me saying that. And hopefully he'll feel ashamed.

For those saying listening services etc, I called the hotel and owner says the pub is very noisy and to have left a child on own upstairs in rooms area was not suitable and he would not have approved had he known. But says he's had others do it too! 😠

I will be going in to get the consultation and letter this week!