To think this may be disability discrimination (but not really be able to do anything about it)?

[PinkyU]

I’ve been looking for a dance class for my youngest two DD’s, one is neurotypical (NT - no disability) and one is neurodiverse (ND - has a developmental/cognitive disability/condition).

I contacted a dance school requesting a trial for both lo’s and briefly explained my youngest’s DD is autistic and has developmental delays, that I would stay within the building at all times, was able to help her in the lesson if allowed, was happy with a class for younger children to suit her needs better. Basically would bend over backwards in order to help lo participate in the lesson.

Received a message saying that they would take my older dd but could not accommodate my youngest due to her needs (which I did not specify), that she, the owner, has taught children with “a bit of autism”, but didn’t feel the class was “right” for my lo. She based this solely on me saying that my lo has additional needs, not on what those needs are.

Aibu to think that this is disability discrimination (under reasonable adjustments), but to know there’s very little point in fighting it because they just don’t want my little girl?

Plus they werent random links, they were blatantly there when I googled autism, I didnt look for random links. Happy to be corrected if it is absolutely wrong but aswell as it being posted on multiple autism websites, it does also seem to be a common theme on Mumsnet when parents of children with autism post on here.

Dd did ballet, they were very welcoming in fact. But I didn't ask for adaptations for her, she has asd but can cope in regular classes

And somehow they all get away with it.

Because people think that saying "there is only one instructor" is a good enough excuse.

Our (privately run) after school club didn't flinch and said they would provide an additional staff manner. Brownies do the same. The clubs we use in the holidays offer support, no question. They do this because they know they are legally obliged to make reasonable adjustments and can't just use cost as a reason not to. Catering for people with disabilities is a cost to doing business and if you can't afford to do it you shouldn't be in business. The one thing we can't find is a dance class for DD who is desperate to do dance classes. Every single one puts her in the too hard box.

People who say businesses shouldn't be expected to do it and people with disabilities just have to accept that, need to check their privilege. Imagine telling your child they can't do that thing they are desperate to do, and they know it is because of how they are. Then tell me I just have to accept it.

How on earth is a dance teacher working on a shoestring expected to fund another member of staff for a class? Reasonable adjustments is not providing 1:1 for a particular child just because they have SEN. Even schools can't do that unless a child has an EHCP/funding.

if you can't afford to do it you shouldn't be in business. You may as well say goodbye to all local dance schools or certainly the affordable ones. Dance will then become an elitist activity.

No privelidge here by the way. Having had to remove ds from one academic school becasue they refused to put reasonable adjustments in place (the ed psych specifically made reccommendations that didn't cost anything) and having him kicked out of various clubs and discriminated against, I'm all for rights for children with SEN. But ultimately things have to be reasonable.

"They do this because they know they are legally obliged to make reasonable adjustments and can't just use cost as a reason not to"
Yes they can. Its all in the word 'reasonable'. If providing another staff member costs too much and it's a small business, then it can be deemed not reasonable that they have to do this.

I’m always so disheartened when I hear this still happens although I’m not in the least bit surprised. I could tell you some stories from when I was a kid and more recent that would boil your piss. People are so fucking ignorant, and they’re quite happy to treat people with disabilities in ways they’d never accept for themselves.

I don’t know whether it’s worse in places that are a bit elitist such as dance schools but it wouldn’t surprise me.

It’s such a shame the opportunities people miss out on because they’re inconsiderate enough to have been born with a disability they can do nothing about. I know i have missed out on a lot, and even in places that bloody well should be making the effort.

I’m afraid it’s a fight you’ll never stop fighting OP. I’ve spent a lifetime battling against people who would deny me because of my disability and I’m nowhere near done yet.

I hope you can find somewhere soon. It’s so sad for your DD that people are so ignorant and closed minded.

And yes to the PP who said how many people say they’ve had their eyes opened after spending time with a person who has a disability. If I had a quid every time I’ve been told that I’d be a rich woman.

Here's a link to an article about autism and genius www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-human-beast/201705/the-autism-genius-connection.

We all know that some people on the ADS are brilliant at maths, or music, or have an encyclopedia memory.

That doesn't mean that it's a 'trait' of autism. It means that genius level intelligence is something that some people with autism have.

Of course some people on the ADS have 'meltdowns' (which is the preferred terminology by the National Autistic Society, they DON'T use the term 'outbursts'). This isn't a 'symptom' of autism - it's what happens when a child, in this instance with autism, encounters situations where they can't cope/process things fast enough/are over-stimulated.

The remedy is to, whenever possible, adjust the situation to reduce the child's panicky reaction. This isn't always possible, as many people on the ADS have an extremely low threshold for sensory stimulation and it isn't always possible to eliminate environmental triggers. But it often IS possible, if situations are thought about creatively.

So, not I'm not saying that some people with autism have 'meltdowns'; I'm saying that assuming that they are the problem, not their environment, is disablist.

I can't explain this anymore clearly. Someone else may be able to.

Oh, and the Equality Act... a provider needs to find out exactly what adjustments someone needs before they can make a decision about whether they can provide it, based on cost and resources. As Comefromaway says, not all providers are willing to make adjustments even if they're explicitly explained and don't cost a penny.

Sorry if my comprehension skills aren’t up to the same standard as yours. But, you know, you see things differently when you’re autistic

I'm not autistic. My comprehension skills are top notch. I agree with you.

I'm thinking this is where you have grossly misunderstood

Don't be such a dick.

In tying yourself in knots trying to find a reason this woman wants to exclude a child based on very little knowledge, you should accept that will be viewed by many as tacitly condoning or excusing the behaviour. It's not poor comprehension or "grossly misunderstanding" it is a very rational thought process and happens regularly. You might not like it, but that is how it is.

'don't have meltdowns' that should have been.

Saying the club cannot accomodate needs isn't necessary discrimination in itself

How is that not discrimination? It is the exact definition of discrimination.

Whether the adjustments she would be required to make in order to accommodate would be deemed as reasonable under the law, is a different question. Curious as to what you would call excluding someone on the basis of a disability if it isn't discrimination.

Yes they can

No. They can't.

They can demonstrate that it would be cost prohibitive, but they cannot simply refuse on the basis it would increase their overhead. The law is quite clear on that, otherwise businesses everywhere could refuse to accommodate and the construction projects I manage wouldn't have hundreds of thousands of pounds added to make them DDA compliant.

You may as well say goodbye to all local dance schools or certainly the affordable ones.

And yet people here have examples of schools able to do it. Other organisations and small businesses manage too. What makes dance schools so different?

Even schools can't do that unless a child has an EHCP/funding.

Schools aren't businesses so this is a crap example. However, they actually can't legally refuse to provide support for a child requiring additional support. They do, and they get away with it because parents have no time/energy/money/knowledge to take it to court but when over 80% of appeals are successful, it's pretty obvious they aren't exactly following the law.

Our schools struggles having not been given enough money for SFL staff, but every child who needs it is supported. This is down to attitudes of management and staff. That is where the only barrier is - attitudes. You ether think it is ok to exclude kids with disabilities, or you don't. Those who don't will make it work.

A typical 45 minute dance class costs between £5-8 equating to around £6.50-£10.50 per hour

To hire a teacher costs £20 per hour
To hire an assistant costs £10 per hour
Hall hire is approx £20-25 per hour
Insurances, registrations DBS checks, marketing, general admin etc These costs are divided between maybe 8-12 children in a class. Profit margins are small.

To hire a 1:1 assistant is going to be a minimum of £10 (that's for an unqualified young person usually, more if its someone with experience/qualifications.) It will cost more to get the extra person in that a child is paying for the class.

It's alsop why places like Stagecoach is more expensive at£9 per hour as they do have a non teaching extra member of staff available at all times but that's still only 1 person (at any one time there may be up to 60 children present on site.)

An additional, qualified teacher @£20 per hour would increase the cost of each class for each of the 60 children in the example that you give by 32p.

Schools rarely operate on a 'everyone pays x and everyone gets y' basis. Sibling discounts are very common, but it's not as though it's cheaper to hire staff/rent halls etc for younger siblings that for older children or only children, is it?

But with 60 children (which is 3 classes of 15 children so 3 teachers between them plus hall hire of about £80-100 per hour) there may be several with SEN. And the second example I gave was Stagecoach which as I said is more set up for that. In a typical dance school it will be 1 room, 1 teacher and 8-12 children.

So £20 divided by 12 children would increase the class cost per child by over £1.60. If you had more than 1 child requiring this that would double etc. PLus it's really difficult to find soneone who will come to work for just one hour. Travel costs don't make it worthwhile. I used to employ a teacher for £90 mins and had to pay £50 for the teacher and £15 for the assistant.

Yes, it's easy to find reasons why adjustments can't be made.

That isn't what the law requires though.

This isn't what the OP was asking for anyway though. Certain adjustments are unreasonable. If a child requires 1:1 a small dance school cannot reasonably provide that. But i gave numerous examples further up the thread of adjustments I made and adjustments that have been made by some places for my own children.

But you don’t increase costs just for the one class that has a child with SEN. You price it in based on a % of classes that will have a child with SEN.

A quick google suggests 7% of children have a disability so based on classes of 8-12 you would expect every other class to have a disabled child. Of course, not all these children will need an additional adult, but it’s a good place to start.

So rather than raising prices for one class by £1.60, you raise prices for all by 80p.

As for finding it difficult to find someone to work for one hour, dance schools etc usually have classes running back to back for different abilities or different types of dance. So you could arrange the groups so the assistant is employed all evening, not just an hour. There’s also the opportunity to open up to volunteers or apprentices looking to gain experience in a relevant field (not just dance students, but people looking for experience with children with SEN).

In my area at least, there are charities that provide support for children with SEN to attend after school clubs. It’s usually for a set amount of time (eg 8 weeks) but that might be enough to settle a child in, once they know the routines and the teacher the support can be faded.

You could also look at other ways of supporting children that won’t be so expensive. Maybe make one class specifically for children who need their parents to support. Maybe make a ‘relaxed’ class where the music isn’t so loud, and lighting is different.

But OP didn't get the opportunity to discuss her child's needs with the teacher; the teacher decided that the class wasn't suitable based on brief information about her dd's disability.

Not all, or even most, children with SEN need full-time, dedicated 1:1 support. Adjustments like letting them enter the class before or after everyone else, having a designated spot to stand in, adjusting feedback/praise frequency and style may be all some children need.

It may also be possible to find a volunteer student who wants to build up practical experience with children with SEN, who a short class would suit in terms of their other commitments. This would incur minimal admin cost.

So it's not particularly true to say that a 'small dance school cannot reasonably provide 1:1 support, until all avenues to access this have been explored.

x-post with Crohnically who puts it better than me.

"Of course some people on the ADS have 'meltdowns"
Thankyou. I thought so. This was my understanding. So it follows that if meltdowns are a strong possibility for many autistic people, and this is quite well known, then its not that terrible for someone to state this on a post.

"Don't be such a dick."
How rude. Do you normally speak to people like this?

"In tying yourself in knots trying to find a reason this woman wants to exclude a child based on very little knowledge ......"

I wasnt tying myself in knots at all? As she mentioned the fact that she'd taught an autistic child before and followed that with a no as she didnt think it would work, I think theres your answer. It was clear to me that she didn't want to do it and her previous experious had a lot to do with this. That's not condoning it at all, that's possibly identifying the reason.
I get that others think differently and have interpreted her answer differently, and that's up to them.

"viewed by many as tacitly condoning or excusing the behaviour."
Not when I've said exactly the opposite at least 10 times now?

To put it the way you did.....You might not like that, but that's how it is.

Tabby well... it was pretty offensive for your first posts to say that the teacher had probably had a bad experience with a child with autism before, that someone you know had a child with autism try to strangle then posting ad infinitum about 'outbursts'.

No, meltdowns aren't a 'strong possibility for many autistic people'. They aren't for OP's dd for example.

You're correct to say that the teacher didn't want to teach this little girl based solely on brief information about her additional needs though, largely because of having a disablist attitude like yours.

The OP herself stated that the teacher had previous experience of a child with autism in her class.

@TabbyMumz was therefore being logical in assuming that the experience had not been positive if the reaction was a knee jerk no.

Just because she didn't immediately want to rain down destruction on the teacher doesn't make her disabilist.