To think this may be disability discrimination (but not really be able to do anything about it)?

[PinkyU]

I’ve been looking for a dance class for my youngest two DD’s, one is neurotypical (NT - no disability) and one is neurodiverse (ND - has a developmental/cognitive disability/condition).

I contacted a dance school requesting a trial for both lo’s and briefly explained my youngest’s DD is autistic and has developmental delays, that I would stay within the building at all times, was able to help her in the lesson if allowed, was happy with a class for younger children to suit her needs better. Basically would bend over backwards in order to help lo participate in the lesson.

Received a message saying that they would take my older dd but could not accommodate my youngest due to her needs (which I did not specify), that she, the owner, has taught children with “a bit of autism”, but didn’t feel the class was “right” for my lo. She based this solely on me saying that my lo has additional needs, not on what those needs are.

Aibu to think that this is disability discrimination (under reasonable adjustments), but to know there’s very little point in fighting it because they just don’t want my little girl?

Clearly you don't understand. Calling your posts disablism was to try and demonstrate how ridiculous your point is, that it's ok to misinterpret people because we are all entitled to opinions, however ludicrous.

And as you seem to struggle with comprehension, I'll clarify my meaning. Woke muppets calling discrimination where there is none is counterproductive. It's a real, serious problem, not an exercise in demonstrating how 'right on' you are.

@TrainspottingWelsh are you including me in the term ‘woke muppets’ as one of the posters you gave Tabby a hard time?

Because I’m not at all. I am autistic. Tabby’s posts initially upset me as she immediately jumped to safety and violence.

I maintain that pointing out reasons for discrimination (or for anything really) are the same as condoning it. Imagine if a husband beat his wife and tabby said ‘maybe she didn’t have his dinner ready on time’. Doesn’t that sound like condoning it?

Sorry if my comprehension skills aren’t up to the same standard as yours. But, you know, you see things differently when you’re autistic.

She may also be concerned her the safety of herself and the other children

yeah, because those with Asd and learning are intrinsically dangerous. The ingnorance of some on this thread is mind-blowing.

Trainspotting misintepretation occurs when people view the same thing differently.

Some posters, including CronhicallyEarly and daisyfairies as well as myself interpreted Tabby's posts as disablist. Her continuing to justify her immediate association of autism with outbursts was made worse not better by her saying that the 'autism awareness 'society talks about outburst and meltdowns.

You didn't. That's fine, but you didn't 'interpret' my posts as 'disablist' - you said that to (badly) make a point which suggested how flippant a term 'disablist' is to you.

You did misintepret my posts as 'woke-ist' though. I also have a disability, and am nearer asleep than woke.

Other than that CronhnicallyEarly puts it better than me.

"Imaintain that pointing out reasons for discrimination (or for anything really)arethe same as condoning it. Imagine if a husband beat his wife and tabby said ‘maybe she didn’t have his dinner ready on time’. Doesn’t that sound like condoning it?"
No it doesnt. Thats very basic misinterpreting. Thinking for a reason behind things does not condone it. I'm thinking this is where you have grossly misunderstood. Try and think of it as investigating a crime. Do policemen condone a murder when they are investigating and looking at the series of events? No they dont. I was simply looking at the series of events. In your scenario, if I had of wondered if she hadnt cooked his dinner, that in no way means that I think firstly she should have done, and secondly he was within his rights to beat her! In our scenario I was merely wondering why the teacher didnt want to teach the child.

"Her continuing to justify her immediate association of autism with outbursts was made worse not better by her saying that the 'autism awareness 'society talks about outburst and meltdowns."
The autism awareness society does talk about outbursts and meltdowns, this is fact. Many many parents on mumsnet also talk about this being prevalent with their child who has autism. This does not mean every person with autism has meltdowns, of course it doesnt, but it would equally be disingenuous to state that this is absolutely not true and terrible for someone to mention this. As many many people have heard of this being a prevalent theme with children with autism, I wondered if this is what the teacher was thinking. Again, to make it clear, not condoning it, thinking of the series of events.

I've never heard of the 'autism awareness' society - did you mean the National Autistic Society? They don't use the term 'outbursts' as far as I can see.

"Autism Behavior ProblemsWhat’s Triggering Your Child’s Outbursts?"...taken from on online Harvard article on autism. Outbursts means very much the same as meltdowns. Autism.org talks a lot about meltdowns and what might trigger them.

"Managing an aggressive outburst from your child with autism spectrum disorder.
You probably can’t prevent every outburst from your child with autism spectrum disorder (ASD). But you can try to manage the aggressive behaviour when it happens"

Taken from raising children.net/autism..

"Challenging behaviour
Some autistic people can display challenging behaviour. It includes what would normally be considered physically aggressive behaviour, but can also include other behaviours if they are having a negative impact on the person or their family. Below we give some general ideas on strategies to try, and information on getting support. We also have specific information about the possible reasons for, and suggest strategies to address:

self-injurious behaviourphysical challenging behavioursuch as biting, spitting, hitting and hair pulling"

Taken from autism.org.

What the fuck I’d wrong with some people?!!

I clearly and on multiple posts expressed how upset and saddened I was by this situation, at how my lo was rejected apropos of a disclosure of disability.

The human response to that would be empathy, understanding and a centring of the “victim”, my 7 year old little girl.

It seems some people are so selfish and self absorbed that you can’t take your head out your own arse to stop have pathetic arguments about intent and semantics. Now a poster is copy and pasting from random fucking pages to prove her point.

Again, what the fuck is wrong with you?!!

Tabby your posts were ignorant and offensive, you immediately jumped to a negative association with disability. You naturally assumed that the teacher simply MUST have had a noisy, disruptive, violent child in class before so that’s why she rejected my dd. It couldn’t possibly have been because she felt the class was too busy/difficult/loud/bright etc, etc. Reasons which made the CLASS not suitable as opposed to my CHILD. No, you immediately jumped to the conclusion that a disabled child MUST be at fault somewhere.

In order to balance my mental health, I will conclude the above. The dance teacher felt the class was unsuitable for my child (not the other way round) I will move on and find another.

Some posters need to had a think about their ignorance.

You opened up a debate on disability discrimination on AIBU, so you can expect to get a range of comments on the subject.

"In order to balance my mental health, I will conclude the above. The dance teacher felt the class was unsuitable for my child (not the other way round) I will move on and find another."
Yes of course the dance teacher thought the class was unsuitable, that's what we are saying here. In trying to stop disability discrimination, we must try to understand the heart if it, and what the dance teacher was thinking. You also were questioning discrimination and this is what we were answering. In answering, I made the comment perhaps she thought x,y,z based on her previous experience. That is not condoning it. I mentioned perhaps her experience previously had an ongoing affect and perhaps she thought there was a risk and mentioned meltdowns/outbursts. I understand people are upset by that thought. A poster was trying to make out I was condoning it and that I was terribly wrong in mentioning meltdowns. Of course not all children will have meltdowns, but it is something I've heard of and many posters on mumsnet have talked about this and how it affects their child, so I dont think I was being disingenuous in thinking it was a possibility that the teacher had considered this. I was lambasted for stating this, so to check my understanding, I did some research, and I was correct in thinking this is a possible prevalent theme with autism. I was being questioned that this wasnt the case, so backed it up with evidence.
Of course your child is a victim here, that goes without saying (thought she was 3, could be a typo or my misunderstanding?).
Apologies if our ongoing discussions had upset you, simply trying to clear up any misunderstandings, (nobody likes to be told they are disablist, when they feel its untrue).

You’ve made almost half my post about you!!

Stop and go away!

I think your comments were disablist Tabby and show a lack of understanding about autism and the law surrounding disability discrimination.

"You’ve made almost half my post about you!!Stop and go away!"

It's a social media thread and you encouraged / questioned people to answer!? I havent made it about me, all my posts were about the situation. If I feel people have misinterpreted what I've said, I'm going to want to answer them?

Bottle up...what do you mean about the law around disability discrimination...why do you think I dont understand this?

I’m asking for this to be deleted now as Tabby clearly can’t recognise her own ignorance, or that she is de-railing my post for her own self interest. Quite disgusting actually.

Many, many thanks to all those posters who offered their experiences, understanding and empathy, it’s greatly appreciated.

The correct response from the person who delivers any club in this situation is to discuss in full with the parent what the child's needs are, and come to a conclusion as to whether attendance is possible.

Saying the club cannot accomodate needs isn't necessary discrimination in itself, assuming the needs of a child without any dialogue absolutely is.

Apologies you think that way, was just answering questions that other posters continually put to me and defending what I felt were inaccuracies. Thankyou for asking for the post to be deleted, as was equally getting frustrated at posts made towards me.

Pinky - ignore the ridiculous merail.

I think you're doing the right thing in moving on - was the first class you tried a franchise? I tend to find smaller independent groups more accomodating.

PinkyU I thought you'd long gone from the thread, completely understandably.

I hope that you do find a class for your two dds.

thehorse and chronically my profound apologies, I must have missed the rule about needing to state my dx and personal experience of discrimination before being allowed to post.

My own nuerodiverse mind clearly failed to comprehend that it should agree with all nd people lest people accuse me of flippancy. Soz.

Otherwise, what tabby said.

And as we are never going to agree, I suggest if anyone wants to continue the discussion they can start another thread so we don't all continue to derail this.

Pinky We would all love to be able to tell you that the only refusals were based on genuine reasons for the class being unsuitable, and several of us have posted about them. And in some cases they really will be justifiable reasons. But unfortunately it's not reality in every situation, even if for the sake of your mental health you'd prefer to conclude it is.

Christ on a bike TrainspottingWelsh do you really have to be so unkind to PinkyU?

It's very clear in THIS case which she started the thread about that the class, specifically the attitude of the teacher, is the problem. Not her child, nor any other ND child that the teacher has taught previously.

That's why she came to the conclusion she did, not because she doesn't understand the 'reality' of situations.

I'm not ND by the way - that isn't my disabiilty.

thehorse Given I haven't even remotely implied the problem is ops dd, I have no idea what you are banging on about. But pray, do crack on explaining the barriers to inclusion, obviously being nd it's not something I have any experience of.

And for the record, being nd isn't my disability. Ignorant nt people are.

Either way, ops thread isn't the place to continue the discussion.

Why are you continuing it then?

No-one even remotely implied that people had to have a dx and experiences of discrimination to post, but that didn't stop you 'banging on' about that.

By supporting Tabby's posts, including her random links to some academic paper to Prove that People With Autism Have Outbursts. you are being really unkind to PinkyU who has explained exactly why they're so offensive.

But, yes, by all means, start another thread. But don't keep telling other people to do that then continuing this one yourself.

"By supportingTabby's posts, including her random links to some academic paper to Prove that People With Autism Have Outbursts. you are being really unkind toPinkyUwho has explained exactly why they're so offensive."

The horse, answer me this please. Are you saying categorically that people with autism dont have behaviour traits or meltdowns? Because if you are that seems to be in complete contradiction with the majority of info you can find online with a quick google. I'm struggling to see why You think it is so wrong to suggest meltdowns are a theme / trait and linked with autism?