To think this may be disability discrimination (but not really be able to do anything about it)?

[PinkyU]

I’ve been looking for a dance class for my youngest two DD’s, one is neurotypical (NT - no disability) and one is neurodiverse (ND - has a developmental/cognitive disability/condition).

I contacted a dance school requesting a trial for both lo’s and briefly explained my youngest’s DD is autistic and has developmental delays, that I would stay within the building at all times, was able to help her in the lesson if allowed, was happy with a class for younger children to suit her needs better. Basically would bend over backwards in order to help lo participate in the lesson.

Received a message saying that they would take my older dd but could not accommodate my youngest due to her needs (which I did not specify), that she, the owner, has taught children with “a bit of autism”, but didn’t feel the class was “right” for my lo. She based this solely on me saying that my lo has additional needs, not on what those needs are.

Aibu to think that this is disability discrimination (under reasonable adjustments), but to know there’s very little point in fighting it because they just don’t want my little girl?

"How would you/your family member feel if when they tried to access a service, you were told ‘No. People with brain injuries often have outbursts so we can’t risk it’?"

I would weigh up what they'd said to me. If my family member had outbursts that could affect other vulnerable people, I would understand. My family members enjoyment of an activity does not trump another vulnerable person's safety.

If you're in Devon I know the perfect school!
I had a special needs class and each child has 1-2-1 with one of the teenage dancers, honesty so amazing and moving to see the relationships between them when they performed at the end of year show!
My friends little boy is in the group and it has done wonders for him!

"And it was because OP mentioned her dd's disability that you jumped to an imaginary scenario whereby the teacher might have a child with autism who did have 'outbursts' in her class."
Nope . The teacher did have another child with autism in her class previously (again in the ops opening post), and it hadnt worked out, so not so imaginary to wonder if that was why she was being pensive about having another autistic child in her class.

"Many children NT or not have outbursts, which are also described on MN and society at large, but your sole association of these with autism is also disablist."
Yes, many children do have outbursts, but we arent discussing nt children here are we. Again, as meltdowns, outbursts etc are a common theme with autism, it is not unusual for people to think this might be the case here as to why the dance teacher made her decision.

TabbyMumz the OP doesn't say that it hadn't worked out for the teacher having a child with autism in the class previously, only that she had 'taught children with a bit of autism' and didn't feel that the class was right for OP's dd, despite not knowing what her needs were.

Nothing about it 'not working out'.

And again, you are justifying the teacher's discrimination based on a vague idea of a 'common theme' of autism, rather then recognising that by deciding that the class 'wasn't right' for OP's dd without knowing what OP's dd needs are is discriminatory.

But you're right. It's not unusual for people to be habitually and casually disablist and justify other people holding the same attitudes; that's exactly what you're doing.

I feel that all this thread has really achieved is to validate my initial post to be honest. It certainly hasn't IMO focused on how important it is for the OP's DD to experience life in an inclusive society....

@TabbyMumz

Can’t you see that saying you ‘understand where they’re coming from’, and then defending the position when people point out why it’s not acceptable, is the same as condoning it.

The OP has tried to start a dialogue, by speaking to the dance school about her daughter. But they’ve just point blank refused to listen or engage. If the teacher has concerns, the teacher needs to ask about it rather than just a point blank no.

And you’d ‘understand if your family member had outbursts’. You are right that their enjoyment doesn’t trump safety, no ones saying that it does. But that’s not what’s happening here. I assume from your statement that they don’t have outbursts. You try and explain that to service provider, and the answer is still no. ‘But I will make sure they are supported in an appropriate manner’ still no, just because SOME people have outbursts.

Yes, there’s fear of the unknown. But the only way to deal with that is by learning, not by avoiding the issue entirely.

I can see that the dance teacher might have concerns. Those concerns may or may not be legitimate. But regardless of anything else, it is discrimination in direct contravention of the Equality Act to refuse to provide the service without even attempting to make adjustments.

This thread has made me so sad, I hope you're ok @PinkyU
FWIW your description of your daughter is absolutely lovely, she sounds like a dream and if I was a dance teacher I'd love to have her! In fact you should put that description in any enquires as they'd be unable to resist her!!
She sounds like a gorgeous child and you sound like an amazing, loving mum ❤️

I'm so sorry you've had this experience. I'm a dance teacher and I've had many students over the years with diverse additional needs, including my own son. Yes, sometimes we might need to have parents sit in the class or make other adjustments but have never had a child I couldn't find a way to accommodate. I am always led by the parents and what they think will best help their child and it's awful that you were so open with the school and they refused to try. Just to reassure you that there are inclusive schools out there, although I know there should be more.

We've been excluded from
2 churches
1 dance class ("not fair on the other children, their parents are paying")
1 music class
1 language class ("the other family complained")
We have also been asked to move swimming days (but the same swimming school)
My DS has ADHD.

Can’t you see that saying you ‘understand where they’re coming from’,
I dont think I said that. I said "I try to understand why they might think that". That's entirely different to agreeing with them, which is what you are wrongly deducing from my posts (now 4th time of explaining).

"then defending the position"
I havent defended the position (of agreeing with them), because I quite clearly havent agreed with their decision. To explain again, I have wondered why they made their decision and wondered if they thought x,y,z.

"If the teacher has concerns, the teacher needs to ask about it rather than just a point blank no."
I agree they could have done this. I think they have gone on the information they were given, and a previous experience with anither autistic child, and that's why they have said no.

"Yes, there’s fear of the unknown. But the only way to deal with that is by learning, not by avoiding the issue entirely."
Good answer, but not everybody wants to or can afford to have the training. I'd love the whole world to automatically know the ins and outs of brain injury so I wouldnt have to explain it all the time, but I appreciate thats not going to happen. I dont know the finer details of most diseases or disabilities and even with every intention in the world, I would never be able to rectify that.

TabbyMumz all the OP says about the dance teacher's experience is that she taught a child with 'a bit of autism'.

Not that it was a problem, simply that she's taught her.

From this, you've extrapolated that she might have had negative experiences, and it's fair enough for these imaginary experiences to be used to justify discriminatory practice.

You're right, you haven't merely 'defended the teacher's position' you've provided hypothetical justifications for it.

i think the dance school should have at least let your dd try the classes with your suggestions to see if she liked it abd it suited her.

i often help teach a brazilian juijitsu class and there are a few children with auditions al needs there, the owners literally accept everyone to try it and then will research the specific need and work with the parents to establish a certain style for the child.

Now sometimes it may not be possible to do one on one training and neglect the rest of the class but that just is never needed. personally as a parent of one of those children with no SN, i am greatful for that child's attendance at the class as it te he's my child about SN as well as the sport.

op i would look at martial arts judo / juijitsu and see if you can start the class too, that way you can help out. Also the schools tend to be way more open minded

"TabbyMumz all the OP says about the dance teacher's experience is that she taught a child with 'a bit of autism'.

Not that it was a problem, simply that she's taught her."

Oh come on...she followed that up with she didnt think the class was right for her little one.. .so I'm taking from that, that it hadnt gone well. That's a reasonable deduction to make, when she followed it up with a no.

"and it's fair enough for these imaginary experiences to be used to justify discriminatory practice."
This where you are wrong, I havent said that at all, you've made that bit up entirely. I havent tried to justify anything.

"you haven't merely 'defended the teacher's position."
I havent defended the teachers position at all! I have tried to understand what has gone on and think what her thinking might be and why she said no. That's not at all the same as saying I agreed with her (which I've clearly said I didnt, at least 4 times).

If you post your rough location then people might be able to help with suggestions.
I’m in the south and the dance school both I and my eldest go to is inclusive. The seniors help out with the younger classes (which they love and apparently fight over) and if the class needs a second senior or a 1 to 1 it isn’t an issue - even at shows they just liaise with the parents and put in a 1 to 1 so the pupil can take part. Parents sit outside and we generally enjoy half an hour of peace with a coffee with just occasional toilet run to do.

These dance schools though are businesses. They are also mainly accredited by one of the main dance bodies. RAD teachers have to adhere to a clear code of conduct which includes equality. They chose to be registered but with that comes the responsibility to be inclusive.

TabbyMumz that's the point. It's not a 'reasonable deduction' to make unless you have a discriminatory attitude towards people with disability like thinking 'they're all the same'.

Whether you want to accept it or not, you 'trying to think of reasons' to explain the teacher's attitude is justifying it. You're saying that there is a reality-based explanation for it (rather than prejudicial assumptions).

In fact, the only thing you seem concerned about is to continue to explain that the teacher's response to OP was entirely reasonable (based on the previous imaginary experience that you've inserted into the account).

Which is why discrimination remains so prevalent and unchallenged.

"TabbyMumzthat's the point. It's not a 'reasonable deduction' to make unless you have a discriminatory attitude towards people with disability like thinking 'they're all the same'."
It is a reasonable deduction to make. .she said "I've had a child with a little bit of autism before and I dont think this is the right class for your daughter" . To me that means her reason she wont have her is because of her prior experience with other child. She didnt say I've had an autistic child before and it worked well but I dont think this is the right class ...

"In fact, the only thing you seem concerned about is to continue to explain that the teacher's response to OP was entirely reasonable (based on the previous imaginary experience that you've inserted into the account)."
That's the bit you are wrong on....I have nowhere said her response was reasonable . I've now told you this 5 times and you seem stuck on trying to make out something that's not true. I have said I dont agree with her decision. Goodness sake, which bit of that dont you understand.

@TabbyMumz

You can say what you like. Actions speak louder than words. Your actions in thinking of reasons why the teacher might have said that, have shown that you think she’s being reasonable. If you didn’t agree with it (on some level at least) then you wouldn’t be able to think of potential reasons. Like my teenager attack- I wasn’t lying there thinking of potential reasons why she might be doing it ‘well, I did have an argument with one of her friends so I can see why she’s attacking me now’. Because responding with physical violence like that is always unreasonable. As is discrimination of the sort shown by the dance teacher.

To me that means her reason she wont have her is because of her prior experience with other child. again, this is the very definition of discrimination. To exclude someone based simply on one characteristic (having additional needs).

I stopped telling classes my DD was autistic. It's easier to appear like an overbearing mother and be quietly present during a class (sitting in the corner reading).

Otherwise they appear to either discriminate openly or make a fuss about accommodating. It's easier to quietly sit in a corner and be accessible.