To think this may be disability discrimination (but not really be able to do anything about it)?

[PinkyU]

I’ve been looking for a dance class for my youngest two DD’s, one is neurotypical (NT - no disability) and one is neurodiverse (ND - has a developmental/cognitive disability/condition).

I contacted a dance school requesting a trial for both lo’s and briefly explained my youngest’s DD is autistic and has developmental delays, that I would stay within the building at all times, was able to help her in the lesson if allowed, was happy with a class for younger children to suit her needs better. Basically would bend over backwards in order to help lo participate in the lesson.

Received a message saying that they would take my older dd but could not accommodate my youngest due to her needs (which I did not specify), that she, the owner, has taught children with “a bit of autism”, but didn’t feel the class was “right” for my lo. She based this solely on me saying that my lo has additional needs, not on what those needs are.

Aibu to think that this is disability discrimination (under reasonable adjustments), but to know there’s very little point in fighting it because they just don’t want my little girl?

TabbyMumz what the teacher said from the OP is that she 'has taught children with “a bit of autism”, but didn’t feel the class was “right” for my lo'.

It's a 'but' not an 'and'. If you're not assuming that a child with a disability is a problem, it's possible to 'reasonably deduct' from this that the teacher has taught a child with autism before with no problem, it's the OP's dd's needs in addition to that (which the OP mentioned but not in detail, the teacher didn't even know what they were) that caused her to decide with no more information or discussion that the class wasn't right.

You also say that 'you can see both sides' ie that the teacher's attitude and actions were reasonable, so please don't try to backtrack and say that you haven't condoned them.

A bit of strategy... although you meant well, your insistence on how much support you could give your DD might have worried the teacher. It's OK to wait for them to ask you. Don't immediately jump in to suggest she goes in with younger children, that might arise later.

You could try starting her in a class and say nothing, as pp suggested, especially if you can be there in the room. The teacher will come to you if there's a problem.

If you think that wont work then don't try to apply by phone or on a form; instead say you want to meet the teacher in person and speak to her about both girls before you sign either of them up. Start off with some of the information you put in your posting Wed 15-Jan-20 21:10:24 maybe something like this:

"DD needs some help with understanding and joining in, she may need encouragement or prompting to be involved. She is sometimes in a little daze but will try her best to follow instructions. She is quiet and gentle, she is never aggressive or disruptive. She is very compliant. She has a language impairment so she doesn't join in conversations. We think a ballet class might suit her."

If her diagnosis comes up it's fine to say she has an ASC, but it's better to get this other information across first so the teacher doesn't bring in any prior assumptions before you've had a chance to explain.

I also agree with pp who suggested making contact with other parents of children with ASCs, via National Auitistic Society or any other local SEN groups. They are often the best people to make suggestions!

I don't see why tabby is getting such a hard time. It was pretty obvious she/ he was suggesting possible explanations, rather than justifying them, or exclusion in general.

Saying the world is full of disability discrimination is true, but doesn't solve ops problem, how to get her dd a dance class. And it reads to me that tabby was just suggesting possible barriers so that when op tries again, she can take preemptive measures.

Eg a teacher that is concerned about meltdowns could be headed off before she has chance to think of concerns by op explaining about her dds quiet nature etc.

Because she repeatedly suggested a rationale and 'reasonable deductions' for discrimination, based on her own misinterpretation of what PinkyU said in her fist post?

The teacher didn't say that the child with 'a bit of autism' that she'd previously taught hadn't worked out, but Tabby based her arguments on her assumption that child with autism = not working out in dance school = okay to refuse to engage with the needs of another child with a disability.

OP disappeared from the thread a while ago, unsurprisingly having read posts explaining that discrimination is understandable.

Be realistic thehorse if the teacher said she'd previously had a dc with 'a bit of autism' but follows that up with a no to op, it's hardly likely the teacher had a positive experience but randomly decided to say no to op.

Of course, the teacher would be a knob to assume everyone with autism is exactly the same as each other, more of a knob to say 'bit of autism' and a complete knob to not even discuss possibilities to make it work with op first. But forewarned is forearmed, which is what it comes across to me as.

In an ideal world op could ring up any dance school, and they'd have a nice inclusive chat about whether that particular school can make reasonable adjustments. And at the end op would have a list of schools that genuinely couldn't make the adjustments for valid reasons, and a longer list of those that could make those adjustments to pick from. But that's not really going to happen, however unfair it is she's going to have to find a way to avoid the deliberately exclusive, and navigate around those that are simply basing their refusal on ignorance.

Realistically, it reads to me as though the teacher had taught a child with 'a bit of autism' BUT that the developmental delays that OP mentioned led her to belief that the class 'wasn't right'.

So happy to accommodate 'a bit of autism' but not too much or another disability that sounds a bit scary.

How do you propose OP and parents/carers in a similar boat 'navigate around classes that are simply basing their refusal on ignorance'?

If they've said no, as OP explains, there isn't any 'navigation' scope.

And if there is a limited range of classes anyway the parent has very little choice.

"=okay to refuse to engage with the needs of another child with a disability"
This is the bit you made up. I never said it was ok. I said the opposite 5 times. .

Thankyou @trainspottingwelsh, it's so easy for people to see the bad in posts when it's simply not there. I was trying to think why she said no, and it was obvious to me that it was because of her previous experience, plus the op had given quite an opening bandit on what extra help her child would need.. when as someone else pointed out, when she explained what her 3 year olds behaviour was like it sounded quite nt for a 3 year old.
As I have a family member with a brain injury, I do try to think of other people aswell as our own needs. For example, he has poor speech, and not everyone is brave enough to come and talk to him, but lots do. I understand or maybe empathy is the right word, that not everyone is comfortable with that, and you cant force yourself on people. You see people out of the corner of your eye avoiding him. Sometimes I need to just let stuff go and the other side of things because people dont understand what his capabilities are and I once had a life that was pre brain injury so sometimes I see myself in their shoes.

You're entitled to interpret the teacher however you like thehorse, we're all only guessing. It still doesn't mean tabby is condoning it because they interpreted it differently to you, as do I.

If I had a sure fire solution to end any and all ignorance, I would have shared it with the world by now. Generally speaking, sharing on a need to know basis until you know where you stand. Eg 'my dd has some communication difficulties, would it be a problem if she was at the back/ side so I can help her when needed?'. And then judge what to say next based on the response. Nobody knows exactly what will work for op, but we all know expecting everyone everywhere to be inclusive from the off doesn't work.

Tabby you're welcome. I don't understand why anyone would interpret your posts otherwise. Unless of course people were deliberately misinterpreting for the opportunity of venting.

I don't think anyone was deliberately misinterpreting.

It was Tabby immediate assumption that the teacher had had a negative previous experience, that people with autism have 'outbursts' and that was what led to her making her decision that the class wasn't right for OP's youngest dd.

There are plenty of posts from people with disabilities that well used to these attitudes and the harm that they cause.

I had similar with ds and a martial arts class. They didn't want me or his dad to support him by being on the dojo floor so he could learn how to join in appropriately. It meant that his sisters could no longer go as he could not cope just watching and I couldn't leave them during the lesson as too far to travel home again (no car) before having to come back and no where nearby to wait when cold and raining outside. I was so sad for all of them, if they had been more flexible he would have been able to follow the lesson without support once he had learnt the routine and rules.

He now does after school clubs run at the school where they are more understanding. Also our local council has lists of local clubs for kids with additional needs so might be worth asking if yours has similar (local offer for Sen).

How disappointing for all of you xx

I'm fully aware of the harm those attitudes do thanks, and being an individual I'm entitled to my own opinion as to whether a poster is condoning that attitude or simply pointing out it is a reality.

Yes of course you are, as is everyone else.

I merely pointed out that I don't think anyone was 'deliberately misinterpreting' Tabby's posts.

Ok. Just misinterpreting her/ his posts.

Interpreting them differently to you as, you know, individuals other than you are also entitled to their own opinions.

Our LEA SEND offer has no clubs listed unless you go to one of two specific (learning disability) schools. But they are well known for being completely useless.

Well quite thehorse. I therefore interpret your posts as disablism. Cos y'know, we're all entitled to misinterpret our opinions.

Drspouse if it's not a specific club/ activity you are after, have you tried the RDA? If not have a look and see if there's a branch near you. Not only because it's an activity, but for many dc with sn it can be therapeutic as well as fun/skills/social. Of course normal riding schools would be entirely suitable for many dc too, but for any where it could be too risky an environment, either to try it or long term, the RDA would be a good introduction.

Don't be silly Trainspotting. Several posters on this thread interpreted the content of Tabby's posts in a similar way to me - people commented on her associating autism with outbursts etc.

You seem to be trying to say that making random statements like my posts being disablist (although if you really think they are, do explain and maybe also explain why you didn't mention it earlier in this discussion) is the same as a range of people interpreting the same information differently.

It's not, it's just refusing to acknowledge that other people - as you point out about yourself - are entitled to their own opinion.

"people commented on her associating autism with outbursts etc."
Apologies to those that dont have outbursts, however, it does seem to be a trait / theme that multiple parents of children with autism talk about on mumsnet...and on checking the autism awareness website it also talks at length re meltdowns etc

My daughter with "a bit of autism" trained at Stagecoach for 8 years, at a local dance school for 4 years and went to vocational school aged 11. She's now teaching at Stagecoach.

I used to work there and have had multiple children with varying needs. It doesn;t always work out. One parent took offence because her son was unable to understand that using sexually inappropriate language to girls and inappropriate conversations in the class could not continue. Another boy spent weeks out of the class refusing to take part, seemingly distressed but when I sat with him and asked, look do you want to be here, I will tell your mum if you don't actualy begged to stay. (he was undiagnosed at that point. He stayed from the age of 6 to the age of 9 until he was due to move up into the next age group. The pace of the next class was fast and we came to a mutual decision that he woudn't cope but that keeping him down with the younger children also wasn;t in his best interests. He also had the opportunity for him to attend a specialist support group on the same day.

However I was i a very difficult position when a girl with quite severe learning difficulties attended our summer school. She needed 1:1 at all times and the parents sent a helper who was an untrained volunteer student. Then on the final day the helper decided she wasn't going to be there for the performance which was a nightmare as she was a runner. We had actually had to run after her outside and try and coax her out of the neighbour's garden.

thehorse Even if a range of people did think it was disablism, stereotyping etc initially, it should have been fairly obvious it had been misinterpreted when the poster had repeatedly explained what they meant.

What had been misiniterpreted? OPs posts? Posters interpreted them differently, some assuming that the teacher had had a negative experience of teaching a child with autism, and others saying that the teacher said she had taught children 'with a bit of autism' but the developmental delay that the OP mentioned led her to decide that the class 'wasn't right' without knowing anything more about the child.

Tabby posts were giving reasons for why the teacher was discriminatory, based on 'outbursts' which OP's dd doesn't have and their previous experience of a child with disability.

Some posters interpreted that as disablist. It's fine if you don't, but as you say everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Don't be obtuse. Pointing out reasons for discrimination are not the same as condoning it. It's primary level comprehension skills.

Accusing people of discrimination where none exists is counterproductive.

Trainspotting it was you that decided that you were going to interpret my posts as 'disablist'.

Yes, I agree that that's counterproductive, and very silly.