AIBU to think there’s no justification for eating meat and dairy any more?

[AnnoyingVegan]

People are educated now. People know that eating meat and dairy is disastrous for the planet. People know it’s causing an unprecedented climate crisis. People know it causes untold cruelty to animals.

So why are people still doing it? There is a vegan substitute for virtually every meat and dairy product you can think of. What is going on here?

The number of people I’ve seen on social media breaking their hearts over Australia shooting wild camels and horses because they drink too much water while still eating beef blows my mind.

Because until the US and China and pretty much most of the western world do something serious about climate control anything i do would be less than a drop in the Ocean.
Governments could control and limit meat and dairy industries. Plastics could be banned. What would we do with all the farm animals if they're not going to be farmed. Won't they become extinct.
Clearly the industries could be more ethical but not enough people give a shit!

We have a huge amount of the population who don't care about homeless people, people being exploited and used as modern day slaves, food banks etc. They don't care about people never mind animals.

Don’t you care about all the animals who are going to go extinct because of us before then?

It's a shame, they are innocent parties in our madness. But their demise, followed by ours, will benefit some other group of animals. But the bottom line, the planet will be fine. Even if all animals die our, and we're left just with plants, the planet will be fine.

So quit all this "save the planet" stuff, when all you care about is "save our future on the planet".

"dairy calves being removed from their mothers at 24 hours old"
Have you never driven in the countryside? Fields full of cows with their babies by me.

Oh sorry for the typos. I am dyslexic and didnt spot them on first reading.

@AnnoyingVegan

🥱

AnnoyingVegan Bloody hell, how big is your allotment? I can't imagine producing 'almost all' of the veg required for even a single vegan on a bog standard plot? What's your secret?

I was vegan for 4 years back in the early 90's, after 19 years of being a veggie. It was bloody awkward, time consuming and expensive as it wasn't a mainstream thing - you couldn't just grab vegan products in any supermarket like you can now. The only other vegans I met were via hunt sabbing and joining The Vegan Society, cos there really weren't many of us around. We were never considered annoying, just pitied or thought of as slightly odd.

I have gave up veganism when the soy products interfered with my hormones and meant I was bleeding pretty much constantly - doctor advised me it would be difficult TTC with my hormones all loopy and I couldn't get my iron levels to a reasonable level regardless of how much spinach I ate. And to be honest I was worn down by the whole thing because it feels like it really doesn't what you do, it'll never be enough and if you're not careful it can consume you.

You can't save the world by yourself. You can't force or guilt or bully other people into sharing your diet or point of view. If you try you just alienate people, push them away and they will metaphorically put their hands over their ears and say 'La-la-la" whenever you speak. Preaching at people doesn't help your cause and it doesn't help the planet. It just makes you look like an arsehole.

People will justify any old shite but really what it all boils down to is "because I want to".

Vegans and "carnitas" alike

Why do you think you need to do anything to it at all?!

If we all go vegan you are going to need to use a lot of land to generate enough calories and nutrients to feed us all.

Are you for real? What do you expect crofters and farmers to do, fuck off and die? What do you expect people to then eat, things that are flown half-way across the world? I'd rather eat Scottish lamb thanks.

Have you ever actually been to Scotland?

If we stopped farming sheep, we wouldn’t need to use the land they graze for anything.

Farmers can still grow fruit and veg in Scotland as many do.

Once there’s no more demand for meat, meat farmers will have to diversify. We cant justify literally destroying the planet for a few thousand people’s jobs.

You’re preaching to people who openly bash transgendered people and surrogacy and think it’s perfectly fine to live like a 1920s SAHM housewife

Oh look, a windmill.

Xpost.

Oh we’re back to killing bay animals I see...

@AnnoyingVegan, couod you maybe provide evidence that it’s all meat that is bad for the environment rather than just RED MEAT?
Aka eating fish is ok, eating egg is ok and so is eating poultry. Ho and eating faisan, rabbit etc is also ok for the environment too.

How many of you lot happily endorsing day old chicks being ground up alive and dairy calves being removed from their mothers at 24 hours old (with the males slaughtered for veal)

See Scottish Rose veal is brilliant, the male calves are reared for 12 months so get the chance of a good life rather than being killed and burned at birth. I hate senseless waste, it's amazing that our farmers are taking a chance on creating this new market. See also venison.

If anyone is genuinely interested in this kind of POV, the Ethical Carnivore by Louise Gray is a good place to start.

Also I don't work for the Scottish meat marketing board!

Don’t eat fake food. YAB enormously U.

Oh your plan to manage out all the crofters, farmers, fishermen, butchers, fishmongers etc, please.Can you give me your economic plan thanks for this.

The logical endpoint of so called environmental veganism is that there are just too many people on the planet. We cannot feed everyone on the planet without intensive farming methods.

There's also not much point in just shouting at people and telling them how evil they are. That is not going to change behaviour. I think the best thing to do is to encourage people to reduce the amount of meat they eat (particularly beef), but not demand total compliance with vegan doctrine. It's simply not going to work.

By the way, I hope that vegans don't eat mushrooms, as the vast majority are grown using chicken/horse manure.

OP So your telling me animals which have been around since forever have more carbon footprint than the millions & millions of planes/ cars flying/driving around. There wasn’t this climate problem before more cars planes etc where introduced. Yet your blaming it on livestock that eat grass shit out fertiliser etc. You have no idea what your eating (being vegan) I’m sure most of it is imported. (Carbon footprint) I’m married to a farmer so I know how much time effort goes into raising them. My husband spends 7 says a week caring/tending to all his animals they get the upmost care(despite what uneducated people like yourself think I bet you have never stepped foot on a farm, but yet seem to k ow exactly how they are cared for !) They have total freedom in the spring/summer months, while being kept in warm shelter over winter, You are completely uneducated if you genuinely are trying to blame carbon footprint on animals that have been hear for donkey years. Your more than welcome to come and have a look around our farm, I think you would very quickly change your mind!

Sorry. I’ve spent many years making reasoned arguments and receiving the exact same responses because people with guilty consciences react defensively when the choices they feel bad about are challenged

I’m guessing all this was unsolicited.

I don’t feel bad about eating meat in the slightest.

LOL @ growing fruit and veg in Scotland being sustainable. There's a reason the Romans didn't want it and Dalriada made its living by piracy on the seas, the land isn't good enough for growing enough to keep any population alive, much less the one we have now.

OP, did you have a free hour this evening and decide to start an argument on MN for fun? Go and have a bath and a glass of wine and chill tf out. I appreciate that you have a belief, that's fine, but if you genuinely feel strongly about it then do something productive. Campaign for stricter animal welfare laws, lobby companies to provide more vegan options, ask your MP to raise restrictions on meat production in Parliament. Don't just sit sanctimoniously on MN calling people psychopaths and think you have the moral effing high ground.

Also, do you actually have any evidence of your claims (that meat/dairy consumption is the single biggest contributor to climate change, that one day old chicks are ground up alive, etc)? I'm no expert but the chick thing sounds preposterous given that there are animal welfare laws in place around humane killing, and there are plenty of other large contributors to climate change (taking vast amounts of oil out of the ground, dumping tons of rubbish in the sea, massive 4x4s, short car journeys, mass production of disposable goods, etc).

Cite your sources! Oh and, you want www.change.org/, not MN.

Humans have been carnivores for as long as they've existed. We're not built to live off plants.

@NotTheMrMenAgain, it’s physically impossible to feed yourself from an allotment.
And even if you had the physical space, then it would mean spending all your time tending to said vegetable garden (I’m assuming it doesn’t include wheat or rice and that @AnnoyingVegan is eating a very restricted diet or carrots, turnip with the occasional tomato. No peaches, oranges, grapes and whatnot. Even in season)

Oh what an apt name you have @AnnoyingVegan

There's another thread been about in the last few days asking why people think vegans are so annoying. Maybe I should find it an link to this one

I like the taste.
I am happy to eat organic well bred meat. It’s a luxury to me.

The planet will survive. Humans might not. But the planet will.

Western Scotland is not very good for growing fruit and veg and cereals. Ever been to Scotland? LOL.

Bloody hell, how big is your allotment? I can't imagine producing 'almost all' of the veg required for even a single vegan on a bog standard plot? What's your secret?

Are you for real? How much are you eating? It’s a normal allotment size (never measured it). I grow potatoes, peas, carrots, onions, rhubarb, chives, garlic, tomatoes (in a cabinet greenhouse). I also have a garden where I grow asparagus and strawberries and have an apple tree and a pear tree. I get the rest of my veg at the farmers market. Make my own bread. Buy pasta, lentils etc in bulk from a whole foods shop.

I’m not trying to suggest this is sustainable for everyone. It’s a hobby of mine. Doesn’t change the fact that giving up meat and dairy is the single biggest thing a person can do to mitigate their environmental impact.