AIBU to think there’s no justification for eating meat and dairy any more?

[AnnoyingVegan]

People are educated now. People know that eating meat and dairy is disastrous for the planet. People know it’s causing an unprecedented climate crisis. People know it causes untold cruelty to animals.

So why are people still doing it? There is a vegan substitute for virtually every meat and dairy product you can think of. What is going on here?

The number of people I’ve seen on social media breaking their hearts over Australia shooting wild camels and horses because they drink too much water while still eating beef blows my mind.

Animals are destroying each other the world over, horrifically, with much pain and fear

I include humans when I say that, but in far greater number humans are trying to contain the levels of fear and pain.

Veganism comes from a remoteness from nature and reality.

When we all lived off the land, without access to airmiles or sea freight, we ate to survive, with a wide variety of locally sourced berries, cereals, and domesticated/wild animals.

There are still humans living off the land this way, and they despatch their animals with less fear and pain. Once you step away from seeing the natural course of food production it can become alien.

I have grown up with a family that carve chicken carcass and meat joints to make food.

When you buy pre cut plastic sealed meat joints in supermarkets and children no longer have any idea they come from animals and their only experience of animals is as far removed from nature as its possible to get (think teacup doggie thing in jumpers in a handbag) then you have a disconnect that when connected causes a 'throw hands in the air in horror'.

Nature is hard and beautiful, humans tried to limit suffering in the main.

Agree with the pp about capitalism, supermarkets are destroying the local economies.

Stop eating out of season would have a far bigger [beneficial] impact than veganism who have been supporting plastics, instead of using all the animal for all its products.

Weve also stopped using offal to a large degree, thats wasteful.

AnyMinuteNow yes, nearly as much as all the " because mmm bacon/cheese/steak" and photos of meat that have propped up the thread too.....

And offal is the most nutrient dense part of an animal

Plants have been shown to have a sentience of sorts. Scientists are only beginning to realise the complexities of the lives of plants. They communicate, have survival instincts, have communities, trade with other plant species, recognise colour, keep weaker specimens of their family groups alive, breed selectively.
So knowing that, I can feel no less happy concerning eating plants or intensely farming them as I can animals.
But I have to eat so I do.

AnyMinuteNow
Babies have died as a result of vegans forcing their babies to adopt their morals. True. Also babies found with bone formation of those of an 80 year old due to vegan diet. Vegans have been experimenting on babies, and they moan about animal abuse. Good god!

..yes, there are cases where growth rates and failure to thrive is directly linked to trying to raise babies on vegan diets (see previous link).

Still waiting for evidence of the above, in the light of the point I made that any cases of which I am aware do not involve balanced, nutritionally appropriate vegan diets and/or parents seeking medical attention when their child does not thrive. I can see nothing about the cases you mention in your previous link.

So which cases are you talking about?

What percentage of the land in the UK (that's not covered by housing etc) is suitable for cultivation? Is there realistically sufficient land to feed the current population, if not supplemented by overseas imports?

Why do people need to justify themselves to you.

Isn't liking meat and dairy and wanting to eat it a good enough reason

What percentage of the land in the UK (that's not covered by housing etc) is suitable for cultivation? Is there realistically sufficient land to feed the current population, if not supplemented by overseas imports?
I'm not sure how it would be now with modern fertilisers (some of which would have to be imported) and seeds, but it was a massive struggle during World War II with a much smaller population (and, consequently, fewer houses). Even then, food had to be imported, hence the merchant convoys across the Atlantic being so important: they weren't just bringing lend-lease steel and ammo, but also food.

A LOT of land in the UK isn't suitable for cultivation: boggy valley bottoms, steep slopes, thin soils, uplands. Some of the wet ground could be drained but then it would lose the benefits it brings to biodiversity. Likewise you could plant tress on the heather moorland to increase our self-sufficiency in timber, but again you'd be putting in a monoculture and replacing a valuable biodiverse landscape (heather moorland is very important for ground-nesting birds and is an internationally rare ecosystem).

It also helps cropland to vary what is grown on it. Some farmers around here grow vetch for silage to overwinter their cattle; the vetch has the additional benefit that it's a nitrogen-fixer. Others will grow a crop of stubble turnips, and put sheep on them; the sheep then crap all over the field, manuring it.

Theoretically, I expect that if we chose our crops carefully, were prepared to use loads of fertilisers and pesticides, covered the countryside in polytunnels and so on, we could become self-sufficient in food. But I suspect that the environmental cost would be huge.

To clarify, the wild boar population in the UK is small. Less than 1000 by most recent estimates. As previously stated, I am not ethically opposed to hunting them either - more the factory farming element of the meat industry.
yes but vegans aint just talking the UK, they want worldwide.
Many places, wild boar is a problem with a big population that would balloon

George Monbiot is a good place to start and he's a meat eater. He's bloody awful

People are educated now and we are able to draw our own conclusions without being lectured by people who think they’re morally superior because of their dietary choices. If you want to reduce your footprint, go and live in rural Africa with those who genuinely live without harming the planet. Until you do that, it’s probably you’re no better than the rest of us.

We are not Holland. We are a lumpy bumpy country. That is what is so beautiful about our countryside.

Most land is good only for pasture. We used to do it right: Cows and sheep ate grass. Pigs and chickens ate scraps and leftovers. Animal manure was spread on the fields to enrich the soil.

There would be less meat, and it would be more expensive, and as such more valued. There would be less waste, and what waste there was would mostly go back into the food chain.

But, oh my god, steak is sooooooo good!

@Isis1981uk especially when it's cooked so
the blood runs out of it!

On the kids theme:

Germany seems more precautionary when it comes to official advice on childrearing , e.g. screen time guidelines, they do not advise a vegan diet for babies or children.

Also I have learned that when advising people there are plenty of well intentioned people who struggle to make wise decisions.

There is less wiggle room for errors on a restricted diet. This cannot be argued with in good faith. And you have to be clued up and open to spotting any problems and acting on them. Not adopting a bunker mentality where anyone putting an alternate view is a wicked enemy.

And what will people who live in places where they can only farm animals not crops etc? Those who don’t have the luxury of choice?

What about leather and other animal products OP? It would be an easier task to get businesses like Clarks to start selling vegan shoes than people to stop eating all meat and dairy.

What about imported food? Importing stuff like avocados and oranges is also bad for the planet. What about the people who eat fresh strawberries in winter?

www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/milk-and-dairy-nutrition/

Have you thought about contacting them to change their advice? 'Milk and dairy products are an important part of a young child's diet.' Etc

www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/vegetarian-vegan-children/

Lots of supplements needed if raising your child vegan

Nothing to add to the thread, except for fascicle - this is the case I read about most recently. I have read others, it's very rare, but there are people who've stored methodone in their kid's feeding cup, there are certainly vegans who've destroyed their kids health with ill-informed diets (I presume it's possible to have a healthy vegan child's diet, but that it takes a lot of knowledge and effort)

www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-49430857

Aren't vegan shoes just extra plastic in the world?

Haven't read the thread to try and preserve my sanity, but YANBU.

People's only justification is that they like the taste and it's cultural. They will try and use any argument they can possibly think of to defend mass murder and abuse on an astronomical scale because they like the taste of dead animal flesh and bodily secretions.

🌱

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2019/12/19/vegan-parents-murdered-toddler-feeding-diet-raw-fruit-veg-11934582/amp/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/world/swedish-parents-jailed-for-putting-baby-daughter-on-vegan-diet-a4150331.html%3famp

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/amp/

I have stomach issues which means I struggle to eat a lot of the components of vegan alternatives (beans, pulses, nuts) without being in agonising pain, or worse! It's not as simple for everyone to just stop eating meat, without even going into the pollution soya and like causes/ our farmland isn't all set up for crop farming/ etc.

Sometimes the best way for me to get some nutrients in me during a flare up is rice and chicken, or chicken broth - I don't intend on giving them up anytime soon! I do try and buy from butchers or free range at least though as agree that intensive farming where they are packed in sheds is not right.