AIBU to think there’s no justification for eating meat and dairy any more?

[AnnoyingVegan]

People are educated now. People know that eating meat and dairy is disastrous for the planet. People know it’s causing an unprecedented climate crisis. People know it causes untold cruelty to animals.

So why are people still doing it? There is a vegan substitute for virtually every meat and dairy product you can think of. What is going on here?

The number of people I’ve seen on social media breaking their hearts over Australia shooting wild camels and horses because they drink too much water while still eating beef blows my mind.

It seems to me that there is vast confusion about the environmantal benefits of being vegan. It seems the climate protests in London have confused the issue with people in general.

Some vegans think that a meat substitute or veg that has been flown around the world for them is environmantally friendly, strawberries grown in Egypt are not and will never be environmantally friendly.

I find it depressing that some vegans (as encouraged by PETA) think their plastic shoes are better than leather ones, or polyester and nylon are better than silk and environmentally friendly! Most plastics and most man made fibres are made out of oil, in countries that have no environmental values at all, in many cases leather is better!

AIBU to suggest that Veganism seems more about social media virtue signalling than actually saving the planet? The vegan A-listers flying in to London on private jets and the protesters getting out of 4x4s, sum up the hypocracy and superficiality of veganism for me.

I don’t believe that becoming vegan is the way to save the planet in itself. Surely better to eat seasonally and locally and organically, whether vegan, vegetarian or omnivore. Air freighting in dairy alternatives like coconut or soy can’t be great for the planet, can it? I always thought vegans were vegan for an ethical stance about not harming animals. I don’t share those beliefs but I understand them. Unless vegans are also only eating local seasonal food and not mainlining avocados and soy products, I don’t think they have the moral high ground on planet saving.

Veganism is 90% virtue signalling

Drill down into the practicalities of the arguments and they disintegrate very quickly

This whole thing about being able to grow sufficient crops just here now just isn’t possible without some environmental problems, I’d argue which are worse than having animals grazing.

How would we keep the soil fertile?
How would we control insects?

If you are not happy with the factory farming element why ban all meat eating through veganism

It doesn't make sense. Anyone not happy with farming practices surely need to boycott those farming practices, give your money to better farming practices, nothing as powerful

You could buy one happy chicken a week and makenit last the week instead of 6 tortured ones sold at a few pounds a go, with consequently far less nutritional value from the eating.

One chicken can be completely different nutritionally from another, so can an egg. So it's a false economy to say some farmed foods are too expensive, as theres little point in eating poorly raised meat and its associated diseases, routine antibiotic growth hormone use, and poor rapid development on poor food supplements.

Its all about churning out super cheap meat and dairy, thanks supermarkets, driving down farmers incomes whilst converting that income to their own pockets instead of where it belongs.

Perhaps supermarkets should be prevented from selling meat and dairy as they are instrumental in its decline, and they promote highly processed foods.

AnyMinuteNow
Babies have died as a result of vegans forcing their babies to adopt their morals. True. Also babies found with bone formation of those of an 80 year old due to vegan diet. Vegans have been experimenting on babies, and they moan about animal abuse. Good god!

Which cases are you referring to? I have read some sad cases which are attributed to vegan diets, which technically might be correct, but actually involve bizarre unbalanced diets that are not representative of a healthy age appropriate vegan diet. They also involve the parents not seeking medical attention when the child fails to thrive.

I have no issue with talking about health but it is not the motivator for vegans so it is irrelevant to the original statement about ethics.

I actually think the OP was poorly worded, as it focused on the environment rather than the animals which is not the point of veganism. Even Extinction Rebellion has told vegan groups that it does not agree with them.

I also didn't say all pregnant women, perhaps I should have said a pregnant woman supplementing folic acid, but I thought the point was clear.

Studies are too small and insignificant to know either way about health right now. Higher risk of CHD for meat eaters, higher risk of stroke for veggies. It's kind of a moot point.

Dismiss it as la la land if you want but its not a bad thing to want for, and even try to implement a more natural landscape. George Monbiot is a good place to start and he's a meat eater.

Going by what I am seeing in The supermarkets, many of today's vegans are only managing to be vegan by eating processed foods that comes out of cardboard boxes from the supermarket.

Not my way of eating thanks. I avoid as much Processed food as I can and try to eat food as close to its natural state as possible. If that includes meat so be it.

You are actually more annoying than the bloody cold calling, door knocking, supremely irritating religious people who try to convert you on your own bloody doorstep !

I have absolutely NO issue with YOU being an 'annoying vegan'', but what gives You the right to try to 'convert' everyone else ??

We ARE educated, articulate individuals who are aware of the facts, and we have CHOSEN to continue to eat meat/ dairy etc

So unless you are quite happy for us carnivores to continually give you grief about YOUR decision to become vegan ( at every mealtime, at work, in restaurants, on the bus/ tube etc ) or to harass the hell out of you for wearing leather shoes/ bags/ belts/ sofas, buying paper or anything made from wood, buying anything with any plastic, ever having a BBQ, blah, blah, etc etc, then FFS STOP doing it to others !!

Just because YOU believe in doing something, it DOESN'T give you the right to preach at others who think differently.

Smug self- righteousness is never attractive. :(

Because bacon is the nicest food in the world! And toast with real butter is a close second!

AIBU to really hate the word "multivits"? And no, I don't take them

I'm having a cooked 'breakfast' tonight for dinner.

You stick to being a vegan, i will stick to being a meat eater.

George Monbiot is a raving lunatic

But if you think he’s inspiring, I fear we’ll never find common ground 😬

OP how is death by apex predator less "cruel" than death by abattoir?

“It’s all about the animals”

Vegans pick and choose on this. They don’t want cute cows to die, but slugs that eat the lettuce are fair game

Face the facts: something has to die for us to eat!

@AnyMinuteNow

I am vegan because I don't want to eat animals myself.

However, I am also a realist and know that people will continue to eat meat, so if they must, I would prefer it to be higher quality and higher welfare without the cruelty that happens in an intensive system.

I don’t believe that becoming vegan is the way to save the planet in itself. Surely better to eat seasonally and locally and organically, whether vegan, vegetarian or omnivore. Air freighting in dairy alternatives like coconut or soy can’t be great for the planet, can it? I always thought vegans were vegan for an ethical stance about not harming animals. I don’t share those beliefs but I understand them. Unless vegans are also only eating local seasonal food and not mainlining avocados and soy products, I don’t think they have the moral high ground on planet saving.

^ this.

The expectation that we can eat strawberries 🍓 in January and always access pretty much any food we want whenever we want to - capitalistic driven food industry & huge consumer expectations - is a massive problem.

New veganism is just the latest string in food capitalism's bow. 🎻

@hamstersarse

Of course. But in my opinion 150 billion animals a year is more than we need to live.

So, fuck the animals basically.

also didn't say all pregnant women, perhaps I should have said a pregnant woman supplementing folic acid, but I thought the point was clear.

No it really wasnt. As simply noone goes round telling people what to eat other than vegans

So no, it wouldn't happen. Anyone is free to take whatever supplements they like, who is going to tell them to stop it and get it from their diet instead? Only a GP when they can see supplementation is causing illness, and it does.

So, no, your point wasn't clear as its a false assertion.

Breast milk is the most readily absorbed and appropriately designed food for babies. Only after much protest have formula makers finally backed down and accepted they can't produce the same.

Naturally acquired nutrients are the best for our naturally evolved biological systems.

For instance, in having a low iron count during pregnancy one can take supplements (which bring further medical complications and further supplementation) or boost the diet. I added more iron and vit c rich foods to my diet which brings more health benefits than just adding iron tablets and without the issues.

If you want to talk about research (studies) vegans have been experimenting on themselves and their babies for years, and yes, there are cases where growth rates and failure to thrive is directly linked to trying to raise babies on vegan diets (see previous link).

We all need animal fat, lipids, they serve our cells, all our neurons. Again, the population over eating and being more obese is not a reason to conflate obesity and ill health with being omnivorous.

All people need to manage their diets sensibly, buy we are evolved to need animals fats, they are essential to our well being.

Many recent health issues as a result of eating low fat diets.

Developing babies needs high fat, high protein diets, very little need of vegetable matter

Just eat British food and everything will be fine

So, fuck the animals basically.

Unfortunately for me it's either fuck that or fuck my digestive system so I'll carry on with the meat

So, fuck the animals basically

What a thought provoking and educated contribution to any debate ...nothing to consider in that knee jerk miniscule rant

It's not a challenge to eat a nutritionally complete whole foods plant based diet

Through have an allergy and it is a challenge.

Funny how on a good diet I can get away with B12 injection and occasional iron.

Vegans require at least 7 vitamins and mineral supplements.

Again, @AnyMinuteNow you have misunderstood my point which was that even if vegans want to supplement their diet, that is not a failing though it is often presented as one by meateaters.

I was making the point that we don't generally criticise other people who want to do the same for their health. I.e. women who want to supplement with folic acid during pregnancy. I'm not saying women have to do anything.