AIBU to think there’s no justification for eating meat and dairy any more?

[AnnoyingVegan]

People are educated now. People know that eating meat and dairy is disastrous for the planet. People know it’s causing an unprecedented climate crisis. People know it causes untold cruelty to animals.

So why are people still doing it? There is a vegan substitute for virtually every meat and dairy product you can think of. What is going on here?

The number of people I’ve seen on social media breaking their hearts over Australia shooting wild camels and horses because they drink too much water while still eating beef blows my mind.

Soy gives me pain and bloating. I'm also very concerned about the phytoeastrogens.

I disagree that theres a combination of plants that will give an adequate intake of all nutrients without supplementation. That just isn't true.

We are nothing like gorillas. You know how they've got those big protruding stomachs? That's because they, unlike us, can convert cellulose into fat. Even they aren't vegan. Mostly insects, granted, but some deer DNA has been found in gorilla faeces.

Chimpanzees, our closest relatives, are pretty keen hunters and partial to a bit of monkey meat.

This alone justifies eating meat IMO

Oh man I'm hungry now!

This, from the independent

What are the risks?

According to dietician Judy Moore, raising a vegan child can lead to nutrient deficiencies, inadequate energy intake and faltering growth.

The first year of life is one of the most important developmental periods for a child, explains paediatric dietitian Ana Kristina Skrapac.

“Nutritional deficiencies are common for vegans, particularly iron, B12, iodine,” she told The Independent.

“Growth restriction may also occur if the diet is not optimally providing fats, protein and total energy.

“Infants have high requirements for nutrients and energy with vegan alternatives often being low in energy. “

However, private dietitian Bahee Van de Bor argues that these deficiencies can be supplemented, either with fortified foods or yeast extracts.

She advises supplementing other nutrients, such as calcium and fatty acids by eating things like chia seeds, walnuts, dark greens and linseeds, which can be incorporated into a baby’s diet once they start eating solid foods.

“My personal opinion is to encourage children to have a diverse intake of wide range of foods including dairy, meats, poultry, fish and eggs, for an optimal balance of nutrients,” concludes Skrapac.

“It is possible to raise children on a balanced vegetarian diet however vegan diets are too restrictive and the risk of nutritional compromise outweighs any potential benefit,” she said.

^What are the benefits?

Again, this polarises experts.

Whilst both Skrapac and Moore agree that there are no health benefits of a vegan diet over a vegetarian or normal diverse diet for children, Bor explains why there might be, due to their naturally low saturated fat content.^

The high versus low saturated fats arguments have recently benefitted from new scientific research that really aren't as black and white as high bad, low good.

Babies have died as a result of vegans forcing their babies to adopt their morals. True. Also babies found with bone formation of those of an 80 year old due to vegan diet. Vegans have been experimenting on babies, and they moan about animal abuse. Good god!

I'm not vegan because I believe cutting out entire food groups is unhealthy.

My grandad always used to preach everything in moderation and as he lived to 94 I think it's a good mantra.

Vegans are trying to deny our evolution.

Meat eating animals suffer / die if they are not given the food sources they evolved to eat.

We have canines for a reason. Our whole systems are designed to absorb all the nutrients essential for life through our omnivorous diet.

Vegans know better than scientists and our own evolution

We need to eat domestic seasonal foods. Many of our lowlands where animals graze are unsuitable for crop yield.

Just a thought.... if we all become vegans what will happen to all the farms? There will be no sheep, cows, chickens, pigs etc being bred for food so I assume they will become extinct eventually? A countryside full of grass.

We would bring extinction upon domestic animals, which would include our pets apparently as thats using animals for our own selfish means, never mind that dogs and cats have interdependence with humans for their survival in their genes.

Much like many life forms in nature.

Once the oldest cow died, without further breeding they'd be extinct.

Does it matter?

And that's your body and this is why anecdotes don't work for justifying veganism or meat eating.

Comparatively, I have no issues with the soy I eat (edamamel, and my hormones are fine. I firmly believe that mammalian hormones have a more detrimental effect on health than phytoestrogens.

I know gorillas eat insects, that's why I said much more of our diet should be plant based if you're using them as a comparison. I also said we are more like gorillas than cats which is also true, given the class of mammals we are in.

You are welcome to believe that is impossible to eat healthily on a vegan diet yet here are thousands of us out in the real world happy and healthy.

Also why does the idea of supplementation become a deal breaker in discussions about veganism but nobody tells a pregnant woman she can only get her folic acid through diet? People like to use supplementation as if it's some kind of failing to eat fortified foods or take multivits. Most adults I know, regardless of diet, take multivits. And even if you don't, farmed animals are supplemented before you eat them so you're just taking them through a middle man.

Again, you can't change people's ethics and you shouldn't try and justify eating meat to vegans based on protein sources - we are not motivated by that.

So eating the animals is ok? As long as they are their for our stomachs...

And this is why people hate vegans. Not your choices, the (often highly hypocritical) preaching.

People always refer to the highly publicised 'vegan neglect' cases, but given there are 600k vegans in the UK and a population of ~66m, I wonder how often you would hear about the malnourished children of meateaters if it was beneficial to newspapers to report every case.

@lollypoplips

It would become wild land. Full of trees, flowers, hedgerows.

Greater habitat for our wildlife that has lost out in the last century.

We could reintroduce apex predators and have a more natural balance.

The world wouldn't go vegan overnight, it would happen gradually. As demand decreases, supply would decrease.

The breeds of domesticated cows pigs and sheep may go extinct but we could have more wild cattle, wild sheep, wild boar.

wild boar

people cull wild boar because they are dangerous and destroy everything
no sane person wants MORE of that

@squeekums

To my mind, no sane person who has the choice is complicit in animal abuse and suffering, but here we are.

Your ethics are your ethics.

Spidey66
My grandad always used to preach everything in moderation and as he lived to 94 I think it's a good mantra.

Your grandad was a similar age to Donald Watson who died aged 95 in 2010. He was a founder of the Vegan Society and had been vegan for 65+ years.

Your ethics are your ethics.

Exactly. As yours are yours. You have a right to have yours and live by yours, and of course to have an opinion on the ethics of others and share it.

Others have the right to have theirs, live by theirs, to have an opinion on the ethics of others, and to share it.

And all have the right to take on board as little or much as they please of differing opinions and ethics.

And when it comes to what we eat, no one has to 'justify' to another person why they eat what they eat. If they're happy with what they eat, that's okay. Even if you cannot for the life of you fathom why they would be.

It would become wild land. Full of trees, flowers, hedgerows.

Greater habitat for our wildlife that has lost out in the last century.

We could reintroduce apex predators and have a more natural balance.

Where exactly are you going to grow all the plants that we’d need to produce? And how would you do that in the UK in the winter?

A countryside full of grass. concrete and scrubland more like

and poly tunnels

Your ethics are your ethics.

Theres many a vegans mistake, i dont eat based in ethics, i eat based on taste. Like SO many

I also value human safety above having more dangerous wild animals. Say in northern territory, I have no issue with croc culls, especially when they enter property or townships.

Plus the wild boar your so keen to have more of, will destroy your vegan crops. Thin wire fences wont keep them out

@hamstersarse

You need a lot less land to feed people plants than you do to feed animals to feed people meat and plants. We already have the land. We would continue to import and export as we already do.

@mbosnz

Yep agreed. I didn't post on here looking to convert anyone. Individuals will either come to that conclusion or they won't.

I posted to highlight that veganism is centered around animals first and foremost and debates can rage on about health and the environment but that's not really the point of giving up animal products for most.

It’s la la land thinking

The habitat would be entirely destroyed without grazing animals

I’m all for least suffering for the animal but the vegan proposition is insane

Some kind of fantasy idyll in some peoples minds how everything would be la la la la.

Yes, meat for our stomachs, what else? Meat for all meat eaters stomachs, well yes, how obvious.

nobody tells a pregnant woman she can only get her folic acid through diet? People like to use supplementation as if it's some kind of failing to eat fortified foods or take multivits. Most adults I know, regardless of diet, take multivits. And even if you don't, farmed animals are supplemented before

See this is whats wrong with many vegans sweeping statements.

Interestingly, before I read this thread I was more of the vegan mind. Having listened to the outlandish statements and claims being made by supporters of veganism and the science against it, as well as the actual harms, and world impact, combined with the frankly nasty behaviour towards their fellow humankind of many vegans, I am now more against it.

All highly processed foods should be removed from our shelves.

I did get all my folic acid through my diet. I also got all my iron through my diet. I dont support animal practices that routinely supplement, etc, but then thats an issue of animal farming practice and not something to wrongly conflate with veganism.

Veganism is an ethical stance. If you don't agree with farming methods campaign to change them.

Vegans need to look at all the pain and suffering nature deliberately causes everyone. Humans have worked to limit that with their pets and in farming practices through the welfare act and organic farming.

Humans are only one of the animals on the planet that eat other animals. Even chickens kill!

Our method of despatch is humane, other animals methods are what they are, but they are filled with terror, adrenalin and suffering. The same as the billion animals that died in the fires in aus.

Our pets in the main live cossetted lives, exchanging the risks of wild living with domestic which have evolved over time to be of benefit to them.

You seem to not want to talk about health but if everyone went vegan we’d have a national health crisis from fertility to chronic conditions that would have to be treated somehow?

@squeekums

Again, that is fine. You do you. I used to be like that too, so I appreciate the sentiment even if I now disagree.

To clarify, the wild boar population in the UK is small. Less than 1000 by most recent estimates. As previously stated, I am not ethically opposed to hunting them either - more the factory farming element of the meat industry.