AIBU to think there’s no justification for eating meat and dairy any more?

[AnnoyingVegan]

People are educated now. People know that eating meat and dairy is disastrous for the planet. People know it’s causing an unprecedented climate crisis. People know it causes untold cruelty to animals.

So why are people still doing it? There is a vegan substitute for virtually every meat and dairy product you can think of. What is going on here?

The number of people I’ve seen on social media breaking their hearts over Australia shooting wild camels and horses because they drink too much water while still eating beef blows my mind.

@FeckOffGraham maybe it just depends on the community, or maybe times have just changed. I do encounter that attitude sometimes, but very rarely. All of the vegans I know in real life and most I talk to online are fine with pet ownership.

My cat comes back to me voluntarily. To be fair, I do think there is an element of slavery. Can't see it changing though, I'll continue to obey the feline and tell myself we have a symbiotic, holistic ecosystem type relationship going on.

I'm no longer vegan, but I tend to agree with this:

www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/blog/veganism-and-companion-animals

I am not against pet ownership myself, I hasten to add, but I definitely think breeding animals as pets is somehow a bit wrong... It is also such a luxury and these days we are told to cut down on luxuries which add to our carbon footprint; fewer babies, less meat, fewer holidays abroad etc. Nobody likes to hear it, but pets can be added to that list. There is an overpopulation of animals which only exist because we think they're cute and we need some company.

I read an article a while ago about how, as things worsen with CC, we are obviously going to need strong communities (human communities). If people put as much energy into being caring towards people in their communities and building stronger ties there, as they do breeding and buying cute wee pugs and Persian cats, it would do us a lot of good in the future. Less need for pets, as we would have each other for company too.

😂😂😂 @FGSJoanWhatsWrongWithYou

We are omnivores designed to eat a varied diet including meat.

If you ever watch a David Attenborough programme, when the lion catches the zebra everyone says 'oh it's just doing what it's made to do, it's the circle of life' etc...

How is it really that different? It's the food chain, it exists in all species and always have, it's not a new concept.

You know I actually agree that a lot could be done to improve the welfare of animals used for food, I'm all for encouraging improvements in that regard. But not to cut meat completely out of the human diet and live off fake substitutes that taste like shit half the time.

YABU, and generalizing.

Lots of hill farms etc in Britain can only be used for sheep farming - it's not small U.K farms emitting the huge amount of methane in to the atmosphere - it's the industrialized places in the Amazon.

Also, coeliacs like me have to have extra calcium via dairy products as our bodies are so bad at absorbing vitamin D. There are other sources of calcium, yes, but by and large dairy is the best way for people like me to avoid vitamin deficiency.

Your post is well meant, but ill informed I'm afraid.

I definitely think breeding animals as pets is somehow a bit wrong... It is also such a luxury and these days we are told to cut down on luxuries which add to our carbon footprint; fewer babies, less meat, fewer holidays abroad etc. Nobody likes to hear it, but pets can be added to that list. There is an overpopulation of animals which only exist because we think they're cute and we need some company.

I really agree with this. So many designer pets are bred while others are euthanised in shelters. Not to mention the number of breeds that have had horrible, life-limiting defects bred into them in an attempt to exaggerate the features of the breed. You can really see it if you compare the earliest photos of things like pugs and boxers to the way they look now. It’s so cruel.

And I don't understand your argument about how you'd be happy to reintroduce wolves to deal with the deer population.

How is it better for the deer to be ripped to shreds by a wolf but it's disgraceful for it to be quickly shot by man? I don't like the thought of hunting and I couldn't do it myself, but I understand the need in certain circumstances.

I think you’re an @AnnoyingVegan because you think you have the right to preach to people.

Do your own thing. If you have the time to mither over me eating a cheese sandwich then consider yourself lucky.

I'd rather eat meat and dairy, than a substitute that's not natural and full of chemicals. Besides. I love meat and my daily latte.

OP there’s quite a lot of research on how to encourage people to make more ethical choices... your way isn’t it unfortunately

If animal husbandry died out, where would the manure needed for organic crops come from? Would they need to turn to chemicals?

We'd all have to go and shit in the fields.

It wouldn't be a big deal for me, it's only about 100 yards to the nearest field, but it'd be a bit of a palaver for people in the inner cities.

If you ever watch a David Attenborough programme, when the lion catches the zebra everyone says 'oh it's just doing what it's made to do, it's the circle of life' etc...

How is it really that different? It's the food chain, it exists in all species and always have, it's not a new concept.

It really is very, very different. A lion does not generate carbon emissions when it kills a zebra. But humans aren’t (generally) out hunting a single animal with our bare hands to feed our whole family for a week.

Humans are farming animals in an intensive way which causes vast amounts of carbon, which is destroying the planet.

This is not to say you have to go vegan. It’s just to point out that even if the act of eating meat is something you view as natural, the way we currently produce that meat absolutely is not.

This is not to say you have to go vegan. It’s just to point out that even if the act of eating meat is something you view as natural, the way we currently produce that meat absolutely is not

Completely understand and agree with that which is why I went on to say I'm absolutely all for improving conditions / welfare for animals used for food.

My point was that it is natural for humans to eat meat just as a lion eats a zebra. Our way of doing so is obviously not but there is a natural instinct there just like any animal.

I am an omnivore. I would support much more openness around abattoirs, meat preparation etc.

My gran would wring the chicken's neck in front of us and we'd help pluck, gut etc (I'm only just middle-aged but grew up rural). The reality of where the meat comes from reduces waste. You eat every damn mouthful and use every part of the chicken.

Same for something you have to hunt to eat, you see the effort, you see the loss of life. You don't just eat the best bits, throw the rest away and kill another one tomorrow.

I feel the same way about plant based waste too. Direct experience of the amount of effort and resource needed to grow some broccoli means you are far less likely to buy too much then bin it.

Mandatory national service on farms and in food production if I had my way!

We never ate a lot of red meat but eat chicken, eggs, pork or fish maybe half our meals because

• we enjoy it
• it’s healthy
• variety is good
• I have a child who is already so skinny I had to take his school trousers in 7” to get the right height/waist ratio.

I’ve cut my daily commute from 60 miles to 12. My wheelie bin goes out once every 8 weeks. We haven’t been abroad in the last 5 years and I grow my own. I have managed to cut my gas/electricity usage each of the last 4 years.

I am happy with my actions and it’s no-one else’s business.

I agree with @FGSJoan - my mum grew up rural, no shops within a couple hours, and meat was The Pig each year, a couple chickens, and what grandpa would shoot (rabbit, duck, maybe a deer once a year). My uncles kept chickens and taught me how to kill and prep them.

I've ended up inspecting slaughterhouses and farms with work, and ended up more concerned about the butchers getting RSI than the animals, who everyone wants kept calm and relaxed (a panicked Limousin bull is a terror anywhere). Bad practice can sneak in (and as most inspectorate vets are from Spain and Italy, I worry about Brexit), but the amount of faked videos and images going round is huge - similar to the anti-animal experimentation activists who have been circulating many of the same images of the 1950s as long as I can remember.

I eat regular small amounts of British meat - say a sausage with carbs and veg one day, next day potatoes fried in the sausage fat. Never had a steak until I was an adult, have one about once a year now. I'm the classic MNer making a dozen meals out of a chicken, and very happy with that.

Yes, vegan cheese isn't amazing. Yes, meat and dairy taste good. It's also unethical and people get so angry about veganism because they don't like being confronted with this reality.

Then why eat it? i wont eat anything i dont find great
Yes thats why I eat them
No, i get angry about people telling me how i should eat, like i hated being told i should BF dd when I FF from birth. Ethics simply do not enter into my thought when shopping for ANYTHING. Price, do i like it,
and convenience come first for me so shove your guilt thing lol.

trying to justify their support of a cultural norm that is so vile, barbaric and wasteful that future generations will look back on it with horror, revulsion and shame

lol i bet not actually
Especially not with people or their kids I know. Even at 9 for movie nights dd likes cheese and crackers, along with typical sweets. Her favorite lunch at home is a tin of tuna, thats it, just tuna.
Community wise...
Her school canteen? Lets just say there no pressure to up the vegan menu..... Sports day, the vege or vegan options are the ones left over, hot dogs, pies, sausage rolls all sell out,
The local shop just added another meat fridge, didnt add more vegan products though, no community outcry but should they run out of beef, chicken or lamb and the manager hears about it then and there

I think you just don’t know that much about growing fruit and veg

In our aussie soil its
expensive
time consuming
hit and miss with what will survive
first 45 deg heatwave, its fried.
Simply to bloody hard and stressful

From that vegan society link about enslaving pets, upthread.

The ownership of guide dogs and service dogs for the disabled forms a controversial topic in the vegan community.

It is often believed that dogs and cats cannot live a healthy life without being fed meat. However, research has shown that these animals can thrive on a plant-based diet

Is it me, or are the Vegan society more nutty than we imagine?

People are literally going to die because of the climate crisis

You make that sound like a bad thing. It's only a bad thing for us, but people dying out is a good thing for the planet, and all the other life on it.

Maybe if the generation before millenials didn't just fuck about even though they had warnings about climate change there now wouldn't be very angry 2 generations who are constantly being told how they shouldn't do x and y and they are selfish because now z is on fire,l how they are killing everyone and so on.
This is why so many people are angry and defiant, including myself. Our parents had available housing, jobs that fed a family, could travel, have x kids etc but we are not supposed to have the same 🤷 Because gens before us didn't give a fuck about future.

So much denial here

I am a millennial and I definitely see why millennial and younger are angry. BUT, we all have to play the cards we are dealt. My gran was born between two world wars. That was her cross to bear and this is sadly ours.

This is why I said earlier that reducing carbon footprint is something most people aim to do, but also preparing to deal with the fallout from climate change, ie damage control, should also be on our radar. It's what we are going to HAVE to deal with, due to when we were born. Sucks, but there you are. And we have the internet so...swings and roundabouts . Sorry, I know it isn't funny, but you know, gallows humour.

And we have the internet so...swings and roundabouts wink. Sorry, I know it isn't funny, but you know, gallows humour.

Essentially unlimited number of cat videos kind of make it better😂

Tbh there is just no way to make a good decision. Have anyone seen The Good Place? They were right.
You think your decision to eat more veg is good because of climate. Yeah, but buying that carrots carries bad things with it. Fertiliser, traps to kill pests, pesticide and herbicide use, MASSIVE chance that you just supported slavery and support of the shop which supports other bad causes. But you got the carrots which are healthy and apparently better than meat. So it should be a good decision. But irl it's not that simple.

Trying to make good decisions suck, because in the end all have unintended consequences.

If humans want to do something about climate change, they must change how they heat houses and create electricity. Coal is the biggest and worst emission cause. And with prices of gas and other rising, there was actually massive shift back to coal amongst normal people where I am from. Otherwise many couldn't afford to heat their houses. That needs addressing. Not 1 steak a week Paul around the corner has imho