AIBU to think there’s no justification for eating meat and dairy any more?

[AnnoyingVegan]

People are educated now. People know that eating meat and dairy is disastrous for the planet. People know it’s causing an unprecedented climate crisis. People know it causes untold cruelty to animals.

So why are people still doing it? There is a vegan substitute for virtually every meat and dairy product you can think of. What is going on here?

The number of people I’ve seen on social media breaking their hearts over Australia shooting wild camels and horses because they drink too much water while still eating beef blows my mind.

Nature is vicious. Animals eat other animals. The kill tends not to be particularly humane. You'd wet your pants

Agreed. I watched a documentary about a lion pride recently and the 3 dominant male lions cornered another male lion from another pride. They attacked him, breaking his leg. They then left him, returning to him every hour or so to torture him and attack him some more but never actually ending his life. This went on for hours and hours until he finally died of his injuries.

So, this idea that everything in nature is lovely and kind and humane is a crock. Nature is fcking BRUTAL. Its beautiful but its brutal and animals in the wild often do not die kind and humane deaths. I'm NOT saying that justifies the horrific conditions in abattoirs - that is disgusting and there should be stricter laws around that. I'm merely pointing out that animals who die in the wild also suffer brutal and horrifying deaths so the idea that a death in the wild= humane is simply not true.

Just out of curiosity AnnoyingVegan, if everyone in the UK, from now became vegan, what would happen to all the livestock being raised for food?

Nature is and always has been brutal, I’ve just never really understood what that has to do with veganism, myself.

They would live out their lives naturally and not replaced. Animals should not be kept in cages and barns. 97% pigs are kept in barns in the UK. Google Sow Cages also.

Nature is and always has been brutal, I’ve just never really understood what that has to do with veganism

Well, in this thread alone people have been challenged to kill their own animals if they want to eat them. Then, when people have said, yes, I have done- I grew up on a farm, they have been called "psychopaths".

@AnnoyingVegan

I don't have time to RTFT but didn't want to leave you here with all these omnis attacking you haha. YANBU. There is a substitute for everything and being vegan is much better for the planet than eating animal products.

@Obviouspretzel Yes there are. You just need to shop around.

I don't understand why discussions on veganism being out the worst in omnivores

You’ve honestly read the OP’s contributions and don’t understand the response they’ve got?

Bob do you really believe, that a livestock farmer, whose income comes from raising animals for food, would continue to feed, water, house and look after a herd that no one would buy until they just died of natural causes?

Well, in this thread alone people have been challenged to kill their own animals if they want to eat them. Then, when people have said, yes, I have done- I grew up on a farm, they have been called "psychopaths".

I do see that, but I don’t really see what it has to do with comparisons to prides of lions?

I think it’s fair to say that humans generally don’t emulate the behaviour of lions, in food gathering or anything else. So if people are saying ‘nature is brutal therefore the slaughter of animals is fine’ it just seems a weird argument to me because we don’t say ‘nature is brutal so rape is fine’, or ‘nature is brutal so cannibalism is fine’.

@Sweetbabycheezits

But the world isn’t going to go vegan overnight. Even if the current trend of eating less meat and dairy continues, it’s going to take years. Gradually, fewer animals will be bred to meet reduced demand.

There’s no point in using a hypothetical situation as a ‘gotcha’ when it’s never going to happen.

@ahenderson270

I know many vegans who are also coelaics and I often cook for myself, my DH and my PILS, which requires all of the food to be gluten free and vegan. There are many Facebook groups available to join for Gluten Free Vegans to find support.
Being a coeliac and a vegan is certainly a possible way to live. No need to suffer from malnutrition haha, just eat healthy foods.

I know of a 17 year old who some 9 months after her unilateral declaration of veganism was diagnosed b12 deficient. I don't know how she waS eating prior but it seemed quick! I have known vegans and was veggie myself years ago but had never heard of such a quickly detected deficiency.

If my teens cut out animal products I would buy some b12 fortified stock in a jar and monitor them cooking varied dishes.

I do see that, but I don’t really see what it has to do with comparisons to prides of lions?

Because there appears to be a generalised view that everything humans do is inherently "cruel" and everything in nature is "humane". Its a very polarised and inaccurate view of what nature is actually like. I completely agree that animals should be raised ethically but simply killing an animal for food is not inherently "crueller" than anything that would happen to them in their natural habitat.

AnnoyingVegan I also haven't read the whole thread. I don't know if this point has been made yet. But when you say "meat" what you should really say is imported intensively reared beef, pork and lamb. Chicken and eggs have a very low environmental impact, as does grass fed lamb. I am therefore quite content to cut down on meat, only buy locally grown beef and lamb, and continue to eat chicken and eggs and all things fishy and crustaceous.

I don't understand why discussions on veganism being out the worst in omnivores

Vegans are omnivores. All homo sapiens are omnivores. That's why we can live in all sorts of environments and thrive on all sorts of diets. Check how limited the ranges of our fellow great apes are by comparison.

@julietjanuary

That is quite quick - it’s possible she was a little deficient as an omni.

People shouldn’t mess around with b12, a deficiency can cause serious harm. I take a supplement every day (but also eat lots of b12 fortified foods, like oat milk / marmite / nutritional yeast etc.)

Meat and dairy have important nutrients, taste good and are readily available. I absolutely hate soya and tofu substitutes (and yes, I have tried them). We eat a lot of vegetables and fruit, but have a healthy balanced diet which includes meat and fish as well as vegetables and carbs, and yes, a fair amount of dairy. I prefer real butter to the processed chemicals in "spreads". But I also believe in moderation - so we don't actually eat a lot of red meat anymore - maybe 2-3 times per week. And we have vegetarian meals for dinner at least twice a week, and its quite rare that we would have meat in breakfast or lunch (an occasional bacon sandwich or black pudding with an egg).

I actually think it's more important to use ALL of the food we have - so use up leftovers, eat all parts of the animals not just the prime cuts, use carcases for making stock, compost vegetable skins to use in the garden to grow more veg, ….

But I would prefer to get my iron and my calcium, to keep my body strong now and into my elder years, from natural sources rather than needing supplements and chemicals as much as possible.

sweetbabtcheezits definitely not! Some would be rescued i imagine but i most would be culled. This would never happen, the world would never vegan.

I actually think yanbu. And I do eat some meat and dairy, although not a lot these days. I am a former vegan and was veggie most of my childhood. First went vegan in 2003 (before it was cool ).

I think that, if someone really cares a lot about the planet, as you clearly do, they should do as you do; forgo meat, dairy, having children, driving a car etc. Equally, if someone says they really care about animals, they should be vegan.

Having said that, I don't care as much as you do.

I care enough to adjust my life as far as I can, but for me, there is a balance to be struck between enjoying a healthy, happy life and also minimising damage to the planet.

But, if someone truly cares enough and is selfless enough, they should be doing what you do.

There is an alternative to everything, but I've been vegan and I definitely prefer not to eat the substitute meats, cheese etc, I'd just rather eat a small quantity of meat and cheese. I never eat beef, fish or lamb and I avoid butter and cheese as these are the worst offenders for the planet. This has reduced my carbon footprint.

I have children, but that's sort of a done deal - they are here. What would antinatalists have me do? Kill them?

Also, there is no direct correlation between what I do now and how I will fare as CC worsens. I'm as interested in preserving myself, my family and my community and making our lives as bearable as possible as things get tougher, as I am reducing my carbon footprint. They aren't exactly the same thing.

Because there appears to be a generalised view that everything humans do is inherently "cruel" and everything in nature is "humane". Its a very polarised and inaccurate view of what nature is actually like. I completely agree that animals should be raised ethically but simply killing an animal for food is not inherently "crueller" than anything that would happen to them in their natural habitat.

Ah, right - I see what you mean now. I certainly don’t subscribe to that view, and I think it’s naive to view nature as humane. When I was eight I saw a pride of lions play with and then eat alive a baby waterbuck, which certainly made an impression.

I do think it’s equally naive, however, for people to assume that just because it happens in a controlled setting, slaughter in this country is humane. Here is a good article which puts paid to that idea: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/stories-50986683

I never eat soy. I only ever eat meat subs if I go to a bbq or something...and the meat sub is probably no worse than the cheap burgers /food poisoning on offer :p

I tend to stick to just berries for fruit. I can also find wild garlic/ rosehip/blackberries/nettles etc locally that's not mass produced etc

I rarely eat the same meal in a week. There is so much variety.

It tastes nice.

I can't stand the taste/texture of the "vegan substitutes"

I prefer to eat stuff that isn't highly processed.

mycat of course it won't happen, but it seems that extremists want us all to pack it in with immediate effect. That's always the impression I get every time I read these threads. Of course I agree that if we lower our consumption, there are benefits to the planet. Of course I don't want animals to be reared in horrible conditions or slaughtered inhumanely. The reality is though, that some people (myself included) are never going to go to the extreme of being vegan, and that's ok. I am on board with the suggestion that we eat a little less meat, a little less dairy, and do what we can with regard to transport, plastic, and waste in general, but threads like these, where I feel like it's being demanded of me, where I'm judged as a murderer or inferior just piss me off.

Yes I think a lot of kids are eating a low nutrient density diet as a baseline. Then adding veganism onto that worries me tbh.

Vegans online talking down b12 deficiency as alarmism alarms me!

It is a genuine concern.

As an aging omnivore with an optic nerve issue, I am popping a b complex supplement on days where I have not eaten optimally!

going vegan will kill m e- I have an enzyme deficiency that means that vegetables, beans, pulses and anything heavily processed due to the additives - and sadly mushrooms - make me horrendously ill - and cause me excruciatingly painful explosive diarrhoea, vomiting and eventually Ketoacidosis -
I practically live on meat and potatoes, and carrots - and a huge amount of supplements - vegan cheese is heavily processed crap with more of a resemblance in chemical make-up to plastic than plastic! It also tastes shite - I live next to an organic egg farm- so buy direct, same with the dairy farm up the road - small hear, everything processed on site - decidedly more health that all the vegan stuff which requires lots of water to grow, farmland to be cleared, and the amount of sprays that have to be used on some of the agricultural crops to keep them disease free is horrendous- THINK before you start spouting the vegan agenda - I'm sure there are other vegan run chats where you can all commiserate together about the state of the world.