AIBU to think there’s no justification for eating meat and dairy any more?

[AnnoyingVegan]

People are educated now. People know that eating meat and dairy is disastrous for the planet. People know it’s causing an unprecedented climate crisis. People know it causes untold cruelty to animals.

So why are people still doing it? There is a vegan substitute for virtually every meat and dairy product you can think of. What is going on here?

The number of people I’ve seen on social media breaking their hearts over Australia shooting wild camels and horses because they drink too much water while still eating beef blows my mind.

Look at the dangers of soy. Look at what almond farming is doing to the environment and the bee population. I eat meat because I want to eat real food. Not geneticaly modified crap. Not synthetic foods that will probably cause untold damage to our bodies. Educate yourself.

You don’t have to eat soy! I haven’t ever eaten it. And the absolutely vast majority of the world’s soy is grown for animal feed.

I agree with you that almond milk is very bad for the environment and shouldn’t be encouraged. I’m a big fan of oat milk - it takes a fraction of the water, has a much lower environmental impact, and tastes better too.

Synthetic foods (and I include omni synthetic foods in that, there are plenty!) are fine in moderation, but I agree they shouldn’t form the bulk of any diet. I’ve enjoyed the odd fake chicken burger now and then but my diet is virtually free from anything that isn’t whole foods.

I eat pasta dishes, curries, stir fries, banh mi, baked potatoes, mushroom stroganoff, cheeseless pizza, soup, sandwiches, stuffed peppers, dhal, roast root veg, hearty salads, buddha bowls, mushroom wellington, tacos, chilli etc. Virtually none of it is processed, and I only eat meat replacements very occasionally (like sausages or a chicken burger now and then).

I'm allergic (anaphylaxis) to all nuts, peas, beans and lentils so i really can't see how I could achieve a healthy vegan diet and I suspect that are many others who would have similar problems.

You should see how my cat catches and eats baby rabbits. It's terrifying. We don't buy cat food in the warm months: he lives natural, eating what he catches.

Nature is vicious. Animals eat other animals. The kill tends not to be particularly humane. You'd wet your pants.

Believe me, I know - I grew up on a farm so I know what a fox can do to a chicken coop. My own cat used to kill the birds in our garden but now he has a flashy collar with practically a cow bell on it and it seems to have stopped, thank goodness

Also how many people would be put of work? From farmers, butchers, food processors etc etc. Knock on effect. What then happens to the animals? Do we go back to cows and sheep just wondering around? Who cares for them, who pays for their care? Where does the Money come from?

@Isanameoptional yeah, it sounds like it would be extremely difficult for you. There are lots of people whose health and / or dietary requirements preclude it. There’s not much you can do about it except mitigate animal products where you can (and assuming you want to, of course!).

You've massively missed my point MyCat

Wild animals DO have vitamin B12 in them. They dont need supplements. If farmed animals need some, it's because we feed them the wrong diet!!! otherwise, they would NOT need it either. If we were farming animals in a more approprite way, they wouldnt need supplements (given to them so they grow well, not so that WE as human can have vitamin B12)

Saying that you only get vitamin B12 from supplement is desingenous. If t was the case, the human race would not exist.
I mean have you ever seen an indigenous tribe taking vitamin B12 supplements? Im sure not.They still dont have issue with vitamin B12 deficiency because they .. oh yes eat (wild) meat who has not been supplemented with vitamin B12

For your information....
vitamin B12 can be found in fish too... so its not just about bacteria found in the soil.

Referrences here for you

I wanted to be a 100% vegan, but now i've run out of local vegans to eat and some of them don't taste that good as they lack minerals. They are also getting harder to catch.
If we need to fertilise the soil more in line with veganism, then plant a vegan.
There have been times in the past when those that fed on berries and plants were consumed and eaten by annoying neighbouring tribes. Other cultures use human excrement for fertiliser, particularly on tomatoes.

Eh? There are many kinds of organic fertilisers not involving manure

Mycat that's your choice. My choice is to eat a varied diet mainly of vegetables but with some meat and dairy. I walk/cycle as much as I can. I try to buy reusable items as much as i can (such as sanitary wear etc) . I recycle and repurpose items. Make my own cleaning products, have switched to shampoo bars instead of bottles. Etc. We can all do something but don't shove your ways down everyones throat. It is personal choice.

Because cheese 😁

Also how many people would be put of work? From farmers, butchers, food processors etc etc. Knock on effect. What then happens to the animals? Do we go back to cows and sheep just wondering around? Who cares for them, who pays for their care? Where does the Money come from?

I suppose it depends on the scenario you’re envisaging. If the world went vegan overnight we would obviously be left with a massive problem - huge numbers of animals would be killed for no purpose and lots of people would be out of a job overnight.

But that’s a hypothetical situation which we know won’t happen, so let’s consider a more likely one. Say over the next 5-10 years, demand for meat and dairy reduces dramatically. It’s already happening to an extent (www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.totallyveganbuzz.com/news/uk-dairy-farmers-profits-drop-by-50-percent-in-one-year/amp/).

The market will respond - fewer animals will be bred for agriculture. Some farms will fail. Others will survive by diversifying into other avenues.

People will lose their jobs, and I am not joyful about that. But I also see it as unavoidable. We can’t continue to consume meat and dairy at current rates or the planet will be destroyed. I would rather see people lose their jobs now than the alternative.

More jobs will also be created by other industries - the vegan food market is exploding at the moment. It will generate job opportunities. It may not be enough to make up for job losses (I just don’t know enough about it to say anything confidently on that point) but it will at least offset it.

Dairy and meat would ultimately become small-scale, possibly luxury industries, catering to the few remaining consumers.

I think there are very sustainable and healthy ways of eating meat and dairy. I think all these vegan fast food and prefabricated food is very soon going to be found to be unhealthy for both people and the planet.
Loads of packaging, additives, food travelling from Chili, Peru, Egypt, New Zealand. Is not good for us. Eating truly ecological food that’s free range and sourced locally is what the planet needs. Eat meat and dairy but go for local, small produces that care and see it as a treat it’s meant to bee. Same with fruit and veggies and be prepared to pay the price for good quality. Whether vegan or meat cook from scratch if you care about the planet and your health. A vegan whooper from b king is not going to save the planet...
Oh and Cheese, there is no good ( tasting) alternative for cheese!

CynthiaRothrock that is very well put. Thank you.

@CynthiaRothrock do you think I’ve shoved it down your throat? I do apologise. I think if you re-read my posts you’ll see that while I’ve provided information and some explanations for what I choose to do, I’ve also made it clear that I respect that this is a personal decision everyone is entitled to make for themselves.

I eat one omnivore meal a day, the other two meals and any snacks are vegan. I couldn't go 100% vegan because I have found it very repetitive, even when I tried loads of different dishes they were recognisably plant-based, and it got boring.

I don't understand why discussions on veganism being out the worst in omnivores. I guess it's the same reaction as when people get annoyed by very slim people, or parents who are very restrivtive about screens or sweets - it's a defensive reaction because they feel automatically criticised when someone does something differently.

I definitely feel awful eating vegan staples as soy, white carbs such as wheat and sugar. Soy have a dreadful effect, I get so much air that it’s painful. After 3 years of trying eating a “normal” diet I have gone back to low carb. The difference is amazing. No lethargy and no upset digestive system. I feel like I just woke up from a long sleep. I can’t even imagine what a vegan diet would do to me.

I got an autoimmune disease which I managed to stabilise which low carb years ago. As soon as I try a carb loaded diet I get symptomatic. Never again.

I eat lots of eggs, green veg and moderate amount of fish and meet, lots of butter and olive oil. I do not eat seed oils and fruit.
I feel fantastic. This diet is right for me. Maybe not for you, but for me. Eat what makes YOU feel good and respect other choices.

@Amaretto I don’t think I’ve missed your point - I think we’re kind of making the same point.

I’m not saying supplements are the only way a human could ever get b12, I’m saying that the way it works at the moment is that in this country, vegans and omnivores alike are both getting b12 from supplements. It’s just that vegans are taking the supplement directly, and omnis are eating animal products which contain the supplement.

There’s nothing wrong with supplements imo - the health of this nation has been dramatically improved by fortified foods, and if you aren’t getting a certain nutrient from your diet, a supplement is a great alternative. Vegans and omnis could both get b12 directly by eating certain things (wild animals, plants grown in organic fertiliser etc) but we don’t because it’s much less convenient.

I eat berries instead of fruit.

Anybody who thinks that veganism is the answer the world's woes needs to sit back and watch this video

I can't recommend it highly enough. It's the most hopeful, cheering video I think I've ever seen.

I haven't the time or the patience to wade through the whole thread, because TBH I've heard it all before. I'm sick to the back teeth of being lectured by agricultural ignoramuses (grow and fruit and veg on the Scottish uplands? LOL!) whose environmental knowledge is so narrow that they equate beef reared on feedlots in the US with beef reared on pasture in the UK and genuinely think that reintroducing wolves to Britain would solve the deer over-population problem in lowland England.

As for that 80% of soya being grown to be fed to animals statistic. I was under the impression that while 80% of the total soya crop does go down the gullets of livestock and poultry, a whole load of that is what is left over after processing into food: soya meal is left after the beans are pressed for oil, and not all the meal enters the human food chain, for example, plus you have stalks and so on. Also, most UK-produced red meat is predominantly pasture fed, supplemented with silage and some concentrated feed in the winter, so this statistic is less relevant if the beef and lamb you eat is locally-sourced.

If animal husbandry died out, where would the manure needed for organic crops come from? Would they need to turn to chemicals?

I'm dangerously allergic to all plant based proteins. Without milk products and meat, I'd be in trouble.

My kids are allergic to dairy, eggs, nuts and legumes (soya, lentils, beans, chickpeas etc). If I didn't feed them meat it'd be incredibly difficult for me to feed them a balanced diet.

I don't understand why discussions on veganism being out the worst in omnivores. I guess it's the same reaction as when people get annoyed by very slim people
Because of the preachy, sanctimonious, I know better than you tone. This thread is entitled 'AIBU to think there’s no justification for eating meat and dairy any more?' Try posting a thread saying, 'I think there is no justification for being overweight or obese anymore' and see what happens....

Soy is a hormone disruptor though it causes damage and the scientific research into that is still on going. All these meat alternatives are bad for the planet and people too as they are very unhealthy and take vast reasources to produce. Im also Vegan btw but i avoid anything artificial or in packaging

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman I think you’re absolutely right that if a person is eating locally sourced, grass fed meat it’s much better for the environment than many alternatives.

Unfortunately, a huge amount of meat consumed in the UK is not produced this is way, and that is where a lot of the harm comes in.

I think education comes into it a lot - particularly in cooking and food production. People might rely less on the cheap, harmful, mass produced meat if they had been taught how to buy, prepare and serve a cut of beef, for example.

I fucking love a hamburger. A big juicy hamburger.

Yum.