AIBU to think there’s no justification for eating meat and dairy any more?

[AnnoyingVegan]

People are educated now. People know that eating meat and dairy is disastrous for the planet. People know it’s causing an unprecedented climate crisis. People know it causes untold cruelty to animals.

So why are people still doing it? There is a vegan substitute for virtually every meat and dairy product you can think of. What is going on here?

The number of people I’ve seen on social media breaking their hearts over Australia shooting wild camels and horses because they drink too much water while still eating beef blows my mind.

Sorry, meant to post this one too: giving up meat and dairy is the single biggest change an individual can make to mitigate their carbon footprint: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth

If you hate the grauniad, here is the original paper: josephpoore.com/Science%20360%206392%20987%20-%20Accepted%20Manuscript.pdf

calling someone a sanctimonious twat isn’t rude?

Not when they are one, no.

No need to tag me either. I turned it off too.

Not going to engage any further- as I say OP rude, nasty and anti vegan. No point in trying these kinds of posts unfortunately, respectful discussion is impossible.

@MyCatIsATiger, xpost.

Your point 4 needs to be clarified.
We do not get vitB12 from animals because of supplements. Framers HAVE to supplement because of the farming practices that mens cows etc.. do not get what they need from their food. Wich is very different. If we were eating meat from cows who patrue raised, eating faisans or lamb, the vitamin B12 would not be coming from supplements.
The fact that vit B12 is found in the soil (Ill take your word for it), does NOT mean you can get it from plants. Animals are the only source of vit B12 (bar a few mushrooms if I remember well, NOT your button mushrooms you find in supermarkets).

Snap shots of scientific information is just as dangerous as non scientific information imo

Lots of corporate brainwashing in social media right now.

Check labels for soy and seed oils. These are far from environmentally benign!

This January I'm giving veganuary (sp?) a swerve and feeding the family more offal and "nose to tail cuts" but I realise that I'm lucky to have a butcher nearby.

YABVU for doing using the expression “climate crisis”. And also for doing that annoying thing climate activist types do - linking a bunch of unconnected things together (eating meat! Australia! Killing horses!!) and thinking it proves some kind of point about how we all have to change our behaviour to prevent The End Of Days. It doesn’t.

Anyway, I like a nice steak. And I don’t feel that my meat-eating requires any justification whatsoever.

Vegans will destroy the planet. It will never work for the whole world.
Veganism is only for the rich, most animals and humans eat whatever they can get.
Horses will eat baby birds if they can get at them (truth!), chickens eat mice and small birds.
And what will we use to grow the vegan food? Where will all the soil enrichment come from?
Be vegan if you want, but stop bleating on about it!

Not going to engage any further

Why? Have you run out of arguments?

@kikisparks, re people needing supplement in Vitamin B12.

the resons for that are very varied and have nothingtodo with availability of vitamn B12 in the diet (whihc is the issue of vegans).
many people cant absorb vitain B12 often due to low stomach acid and not enough intrisic factors. Basically these are people who have an 'illness' aka their body isnt working as it should.
Thats completely different to someone who isnt getting that fom their diet.

fwiw, this can apply to other areas such as amount of proteins, omega 3 etc.... Vegans often have issues actually getting enough of those because doing so requires efforts to be pt into thinking how to balance their diet, an effort that isnt nevesary for omnivores.

I have to say, seeing how peple are usually not keen on nuts and seeds, pulses and legumes, I am wondering how healthy people would be if they were all eating a vegan diet!!

I find to hard to believe that the lamb in my freezer that lived up the road, is worse than a chunk of soya or palm oil flown half way around the world.

Vegan food is so heavily processed especially the meat substitutes. I do not wish to eat that. I have reduced the amount of red meat we eat and make sure we have at least two meat free days a week. The kids like cheese ( albeit only cheddar) so we wont be giving up dairy any time soon but I am open to trying things like almond milk for the kids. I won't be making any drastic changes to our diet any time soon but am open to trying new things especially if they are better for the environment. I just need to research more.

as I say OP rude, nasty and anti vegan.

Yes, the OP was rude and nasty but I'm not sure you could call them anti vegan... 🤔

@Fraggot

Seriously? You think that describes the majority of Mumsnetters? Or Omnivores? How ignorant.

I could never give up meat and dairy, it seems to turn people into smug, tedious, bores.

Yes, very good point. Correlation, or causation, do you think? Maybe someone could produce a paper on that?

ok so short of not existing the single biggest thing is giving up meat and dairy

Which of the 2 seems reasonable to advocate?

Wrong, not having kids is. I don’t have kids, never will, I hope you don’t either? It would make you one hell of a hypocrite

^Your point 4 needs to be clarified.
We do not get vitB12 from animals because of supplements. Framers HAVE to supplement because of the farming practices that mens cows etc.. do not get what they need from their food. Wich is very different. If we were eating meat from cows who patrue raised, eating faisans or lamb, the vitamin B12 would not be coming from supplements.
The fact that vit B12 is found in the soil (Ill take your word for it), does NOT mean you can get it from plants. Animals are the only source of vit B12 (bar a few mushrooms if I remember well, NOT your button mushrooms you find in supermarkets).^

Snap shots of scientific information is just as dangerous as non scientific information imo

Apologies for being unclear - let me try and explain it better.

B12 is a bacteria. It is present in animals because in nature, animals eat food contaminated with the bacteria (primarily plants grown where there has been animal manure and untreated water). Animals also produce a small amount of b12 in their intestines (humans do this too, but it is not enough to meat our nutritional requirements).

Humans could theoretically get their b12 from eating plants grown in soil where b12 is present or consuming untreated water but we obviously don’t for several reasons (negative health consequences, we wash our vegetables, commercially grown veg is rarely grown in soil where b12 is present). Omnivores get b12 from animal products. The animals providing these products are themselves supplemented with b12 - for example, many cows are fed chicken manure in their feed because it contains b12.

A vegan needs to supplement with a b12 pill, or eat plenty of b12 fortified foods (like marmite / cereals / bread). But this is no different, in my opinion, to an omnivore eating animal products which have been supplemented with b12.

There’s nothing wrong with supplements - they are a great way to avoid nutritional deficiencies. And nutritionally, it doesn’t matter whether you take the supplement yourself, or eat an animal product from an animal who has taken the supplement.

People pretend to hate vegans because we’re annoying and preachy but the real reason is your own guilty consciences.

Oh no pretend here
I hate preachy and annoying people in general.
I dont feel guilty for enjoying meat and dairy

I do feel pleasure when the creamy latte hits my tongue or that drippy goodness of a juicy burger, that salty crispy bacon goodness.
Or that punch of a nice vintage cheese on a cracker with a glass of wine

Vegan food is so heavily processed especially the meat substitutes. I do not wish to eat that. I have reduced the amount of red meat we eat and make sure we have at least two meat free days a week. The kids like cheese ( albeit only cheddar) so we wont be giving up dairy any time soon but I am open to trying things like almond milk for the kids. I won't be making any drastic changes to our diet any time soon but am open to trying new things especially if they are better for the environment. I just need to research more.

It sounds like you’re making really good and positive changes - that’s amazing.

I would personally recommend oat milk over almond milk. It’s much closer to cow’s milk in terms of flavour and consistency, and it’s so much better for the environment than almond milk (which is particularly harmful to bees).

My favourite brand is Oatly barista - it’s really delicious.

Look at the dangers of soy. Look at what almond farming is doing to the environment and the bee population. I eat meat because I want to eat real food. Not geneticaly modified crap. Not synthetic foods that will probably cause untold damage to our bodies. Educate yourself.

B12 is a bacteria.

Vit B12 is produced by bacteria. It's not a bacterium.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/07/honeybees-deaths-almonds-hives-aoe

" I am open to trying things like almond milk for the kids"

Almond milk is an environmental disaster in the making. It's killing the bees.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/07/honeybees-deaths-almonds-hives-aoe

I feel bad about the almonds I buy. I'd like to try to grow a nut tree but don't have space in my garden.

Sorry @CynthiaRothrock - crosspost!

You should see how my cat catches and eats baby rabbits. It's terrifying. We don't buy cat food in the warm months: he lives natural, eating what he catches.

Nature is vicious. Animals eat other animals. The kill tends not to be particularly humane. You'd wet your pants.