AIBU to think there’s no justification for eating meat and dairy any more?

[AnnoyingVegan]

People are educated now. People know that eating meat and dairy is disastrous for the planet. People know it’s causing an unprecedented climate crisis. People know it causes untold cruelty to animals.

So why are people still doing it? There is a vegan substitute for virtually every meat and dairy product you can think of. What is going on here?

The number of people I’ve seen on social media breaking their hearts over Australia shooting wild camels and horses because they drink too much water while still eating beef blows my mind.

Doesn’t change the fact that giving up meat and dairy is the single biggest thing a person can do to mitigate their environmental impact.

That simply isn't true. The single biggest thing a person can do is to not exist.

The problem isn't consumption of meat and dairy, the problem is humans.

Mumsnet is pretty anti vegan so I’m afraid you’ll get slated even though yadnbu

I'm not anti-Vegan.

I'm anti-sanctimonius twat.

@Amaretto vegans just get it from a supplement the same as non vegans (who get it from meat from animals given a supplement).

Meh, I doubt the human race will kill itself off, it'll be the planet that does for us like virtually every other higher species. Sooner or later there will be a caldera event, or worse, a flood basalt event, and that'll be that.

The earth belongs to the bacteria really. Always did. We are but vessels for their continued existence.

@jacqueshammer how unnecessarily rude.

Veganism really is turning into a blumin religion- complete with ignorant bigots.

Actually recently the Courts have decided that veganism is a philosophy and needs to be respected as such. I wish that being an omnivore was ALSO considered a philosophical choice and was respected in the same way rather than seeing vegans sneering at people who are vegetarian or amnivore the way @AnnoyingVegan us doing. Respect goes both ways.

Morning all. There are loads of misconceptions on this thread that I hoped I could help clear up.

1. If everyone in the world went vegan (totally hypothetical scenario - we know that won’t ever happen) we would actually need significantly less land for growing crops, not more. Animal farming currently takes up 83% of the world’s agricultural land, but provides only 18% of the world’s calories. This is because it is hugely inefficient to feed livestock on grain. A plant based diet cuts the use of land by 76% and halves the greenhouse gases (source: this paper - science mag.org/content/360/6392/987)

1. Cows don’t need to be milked. Like humans, cows only produce milk to feed their infants. In the UK, dairy calves are removed from their mothers at 24 hours old (source: this paper - www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022030219304175 ). Cows are then artificially inseminated once again, to produce more calves and therefore more milk. The female calves grow up to be milk producers themselves. The male calves go for veal.

1. You don’t need to eat ‘fake food’ to be vegan. All vegetables, fruits, nuts, beans, legumes and fungi are on the table. If you don’t like soya, there’s no requirement to eat it. Also, with the exception of those with particular medical conditions or dietary requirements, a vegan diet is suitable for any person of any age (source: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.plantbasednews.org/.amp/lifestyle/the-largest-organization-of-food-nutrition-professionals-admits-vegan-diets-are-suitable-for-all ). Of course it’s possible for a vegan diet to be nutritionally deficient and it’s important to be aware of how you are meeting your nutritional requirements, but that is true of any diet (as indicated by our currently obesity epidemic and rising instances of type 2 diabetes).

1. B12 is a bacteria found in soil (though much rarer now because of farming methods). The reason it is found in animal products is largely because animals are supplemented with it. A vegan taking a b12 supplement (which they should - b12 deficiency is no joke) is just cutting out the middle man (source: www.forksoverknives.com/vitamin-b12-questions-answered-2/#gs.ri55z6)

1. Culling by maceration is an approved form of ‘humane slaughter’ in the UK (www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/hatched-discarded-gassed-what-happens-to-male-chicks-in-the-uk-10088509.html%3famp). The British Egg Information Service says this never happens in the UK, and the chicks are simply gassed instead. I understand some people consider this a better alternative. Nonetheless, multiple videos have emerged in the last few years showing chicks being ground up alive in the UK. I’m not linking to them because I find them incredibly distressing, but if you google ‘chicks ground up UK’ you will find the video evidence.

1. The dairy industry is contributing to antibiotic resistance (source: loads of papers, for e.g. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170426123004.htm).

1. Discarded fishing gear makes up the majority of ocean plastic (source: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/06/dumped-fishing-gear-is-biggest-plastic-polluter-in-ocean-finds-report)

1. 85% of global fish stocks are depleted (source: www.bbc.com/future/article/20120920-are-we-running-out-of-fish)

I’m not preaching, I’m just sharing some information because I think an informed population is one placed to make good decisions

I know veganism isn’t for everyone, and I think everyone has the right to make their own decisions about what they eat. For some people, food is always going to be about taste, and they will always prioritise that. That’s not a crime - it’s a position anyone is entitled to take.

But I think we are also realising that the way food productions works at the moment is causing serious difficulties for the planet, and I know lots of people are looking for ways to mitigate their impact. You can see that in the increased participation in things like veganuary and meat-free Mondays. I think these things are great. I would much rather see sixty five million people forgoing animal products 2 days per week than one vegan living a perfectly vegan life.

All I ask is that people educate themselves and know the reality of the choices they make. Be an informed consumer - you owe it to yourself.

how unnecessarily rude

I think the OP has cornered that market.

I was necessarily rude.

@SoupDragon ok so short of not existing the single biggest thing is giving up meat and dairy.

Which of the 2 seems reasonable to advocate?

Is this thread for real? Are there really people who think like this?

Humans evolved to eat meat, doh. Will continue eating meat and dairy till the day i die.

@JacquesHammer never necessary to be rude.

Because i value taste.
The substitutes simply do not compare.
Soy or almond milk in my latte? Pass, fake cheese? Pass, fake meat? Pass
I simply wouldnt get the nutrition i need with my small list of likes. Im not willing to supplement with overpriced pills.
Taste and texture are huge for me and i wont eat something i dont like cos it vegan or some shit.
Not to mention subs are way overpriced

The camels needed culling. They destroy native wildlife and vegetation. They are in plague proportions. I dont feel bad about the cull. We cull roo, rabbit and crocs here too.

Too much meal prep, shopping around and hassle for vegan food. I hate cooking. Plus if everything needs spice added, it cant be great if your masking the flavour.

Vegans like the OP are why they have such a bad name, preachy and annoying

never necessary to be rude

So you appreciate the OP has also been unnecessarily rude? Great!

(As an aside, you don't need to tag me - I'm on the thread)

In a nutshell - I can open my back door and collect yummy eggs off my very well treated hens.
I then eat them.
Don’t tell me that is anymore bad for the environment than a factory churning out pretend dairy and lorry drivers, planes, boats etc transporting it all over the world?
It’s sanctimonious bullshit.

@kikisparks, sorry but you are ABSOLUTELY wrong.

Omnivores do NOT get vitamin B12 from supplements given to animals. Vitamins B12 is present in most animal forms, regardless of whether they are farmed or wild.
If it wasnt the case and we could only get vitB12 from supplements, the human race wouldnt exist!!
The reason that SOME farmed animals are given supplements is the same than with humans. If their diet arent their original diet and do not cover their needs, they will need supplemenst. Vegans are the only group of people who do need suplements (because we havent evolved to be vegan)

@jacqueshammer how unnecessarily rude.

Not rude in the slightest. There are a few sanctimonious twats on this thread and those are the kinds of people posters hate, its not because of their dietary choices.

@JacquesHammer sure but this way you’ll know you’ve been tagged

I don’t know if the OP has been rude, can you highlight where? I certainly haven’t admitted it, do you admit you were rude and shouldn’t have been?

@Amaretto

I know and I find it hilarious! Vegans think it's a victory- I think it's an a knowledgement that it's made up.

@SoupDragon calling someone a sanctimonious twat isn’t rude? Some people have a strange idea of decent behaviour.

I believe eating locally grown and reared food is better for the planet. I live in a rural area. In Spring, Summer and Autumn the food choices within 100 miles of my home are glorious. Winter is more repetitive and challenging.

It is far easier here in Scotland than it was for this couple.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The100-MileDiet

sure but this way you’ll know you’ve been tagged

Not really, I've turned it off Einstein.

FYI - MN etiquette, if someone asks to not be tagged it is considered rude to carry on. Just to clarify you are now advocating being rude?

@Amaretto b12 comes from bacteria.

Vegans are 100% not the only people who need supplements as 2% of the population is not propping up a billion dollar supplement industry.

Actually recently the Courts have decided that veganism is a philosophy and needs to be respected as such.

The courts also long ago decided people have the right not to share others philosophical beliefs. Atheism is as protected as theism. Vegans are required to respect non vegans as much as the reverse.

ok so short of not existing the single biggest thing is giving up meat and dairy.

Which of the 2 seems reasonable to advocate?

That depends if you really want to help the planet or just pretend. According to some Preachy Vegans on another thread just doing something (Veganuary) isn't enough, you have to do everything. So the logical conclusion of that is....?

Everyone is a hypocrite in that respect.

I could never give up meat and dairy, it seems to turn people into smug, tedious, bores.