AIBU to think there’s no justification for eating meat and dairy any more?

[AnnoyingVegan]

People are educated now. People know that eating meat and dairy is disastrous for the planet. People know it’s causing an unprecedented climate crisis. People know it causes untold cruelty to animals.

So why are people still doing it? There is a vegan substitute for virtually every meat and dairy product you can think of. What is going on here?

The number of people I’ve seen on social media breaking their hearts over Australia shooting wild camels and horses because they drink too much water while still eating beef blows my mind.

I am an omnivore and I like meat and dairy. An omnivore diet using healthy proportions of nutrients is the best, healthiest diet for an omnivore. There is value in choosing veganism for a moral reason, but morality does not change our anatomy and physiology. I see nothing wrong with killing to eat. Wild herbivores evolved to live a life of almost constant stress, trying to avoid predators, seeing their young eaten alive in front of them; the best hope a wild herbivore has is to survive 2 or 3 cycles of reproduction, after which they will die if they become the slowest of the herd, usually by being eaten alive, or alternatively suffering from an infection or fracture until they are weak enough to be hunted. The life of any domesticated cow nowadays is paradise in comparison.

Nature is indifferent to suffering and death. I am not. I will choose to eat meat coming from an animal who has been treated with as much respect as possible, and will reject meat that has been produced using cruelty. But I will still eat meat.

We all need to move towards a sensible way to exist on this planet, vegans as much as omnivorous, why not start by getting these poor victims out of these torture chambers?

Yeah the more people post this hyperbolic nonsense, the more people will not listen.

I'll have double the bacon sandwich tomorrow - one for me, and one for you

@Cam77 So why act like you know better than my GP and other health professionals who have actually told me that just going vegetarian is putting my life at risk?
By saying what you did, you're implying that a valid justification for not going vegetarian or vegan is just a lie. Don't try backtracking when you get pulled on it.
All I want is someone who thinks that being vegan is the answer to all problems to tell me why my health and life is worth less than theirs. It's telling that none of them want to answer that question, perhaps because they don;t want to admit that they don;t actually care beyond making themselves feel good.
Just because you don't think it's possible for people to have their health suffer when they cut meat from their diet, don't act like it's the status quo. The first thing I get asked every single time there's even the slightest change for the worst in my health is if I'm vegetarian or vegan. That doesn't sound like them finding the idea of it being unhealthy laughable.

I don't have children. I haven't flown for 21 years.

We only eat meat produced in the UK and only eat outdoor-reared pork and free-range chicken and eggs. Much of our meat, poultry and eggs comes from a farm shop 2 miles from our house.

We keep an eye on the food miles of fruit and veg. We buy British where possible and wouldn't dream of buying green beans from Peru or similar produce. I'll choose apples or stawberries from the neighbouring county rather than those from Worcestershire 180 miles away.

I don't buy fast fashion and we keep stuff until it breaks or wears out. We only drive approx 6,000 miles a year, and around 2,500 of those are work miles, that I don't have a choice about. We recycle as much as we can and have a wildlife friendly garden.

I'd hazard that our carbon footprint compares quite well with that of a couple of vegans who bog off to Thailand every year.

I'd also like to point that in parts of the country that are grazed, particularly sheep-grazed, the landscape has been created by millenia of grazing. The unique flora and fauna of this land would soon cease to exist if grazing stopped, so I'll keep my skylarks, bee orchids and blue butterflies and keep eating locally-sourced south downs lamb in the interests of bio-diversity.

And if these chalk hills and upland areas, like the Yorkshire Dales, stopped being grazed they would quickly revert to scrub, which would be very sad indeed.

if everyone stopped consuming meat/dairy products tomorrow, what would vegans want to happen to cows/sheep/chickens etc?

Many wild herbivore species have to be culled for the good of the environment.

Here in Scotland for example one of the most important things we do to protect the ecosystem and for flood prevention is culling deer.

Presumably cows and sheep would join deer in being culled so unless you think culled animals should just be left to rot the environmentally sound approach will continue to be eating them.

Or perhaps vegans favour one, mass extinction event for them and have done with it.

Nut allergy, a fair amount of the vegetarian, let alone vegan alternatives would kill me. Ditto a lot of healthy diet foods.

All the research, all the science, over the last couple of decades, tells us that, in particular, beef, pork, and dairy are environmentally catastrophic food sources (and not just about carbon footprint, either) for a human population globally in its billions

What we now see are two different kinds of reactions to this fact. I’ll call them loosely A) the rational scientific reaction and B) the cognitive dissonance reaction:

A) oh dear. We better cut down substantially on these food sources or find ways to replace them up entirely in most circumstances,
B) but but but (cognitive dissonance yummy meat), but but but (cognitive dissonance I’m a good person), but but but (cognitive dissonance my salary, country economy depends on...)

I don't eat meat but I'm not prepared to eat that shit that calls itself vegan cheese.

A vegan colleague claims that vegan "nut cheese" tastes so disgusting, it should be called knob cheese!

Because I love meat and cheese

God help us all if they discover sentience in plants.

We are very privileged to have a huge vegetable garden by most people's standards plus an orchard and grow loads of organic produce BUT it simply isn't enough to feed our family of four so I think the OP is 'over egging' the choices available to people . We probably could grow a bit more (we know we are lucky to have the space) but don't have the time whilst also having to hold down jobs, care for kids, elderly relatives and have a disability plus last year wasn't a good growing year where we are with weather not helping our crops.
We grow different stuff every year but last year we produced potatoes, peas (terrible crop), asparagus, globe & Jerusalem artichokes, beans (also did badly), courgettes, pumpkins, carrots, tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers, aubergines, plums (small yield this year) apples, pears, cherries, strawberries, raspberries, chard, spinach, lettuce, blueberries, blackberries, rhubarb, broccoli (very bad year as the bloody caterpillars got in), garlic and onions, as well as all our herbs. It was lovely but still not enough even with storage & preservation for us for a year.

So rather than preaching to the world that we are and that the rest of the worlds choices are evil we do the best that we can to reduce overconsumption, produce as much as we can and share that with others and buy seasonally where we can't.
Like all 'sustainable' choices there are pros and cons to Veganism (it is not a clear cut wonderful option that the OP makes it out to be either environmentally or ethically) and there must be understanding that whatever choice you make, it will be a compromise.

*Have you ever actually been to Scotland?

If we stopped farming sheep, we wouldn’t need to use the land they graze for anything.

Farmers can still grow fruit and veg in Scotland as many do*

Lol, do you know anything about Scotland? We have one of the most difficult terrains for growing food. We could not possibly support our small population and would be reliant on massive imports, I dread to think what the carbon footprint would be. At the moment, we are lucky to produce meat products that are to the highest standards with animal welfare at a high standard too. We are major food exporters because of this and a lot of people are dependent on this line of employment.

I would urge anyone concerned about meat production to Channel their concerns towards somewhere like America, which has appalling standards.

What vegans always seem to forget (or conveniently ignore) is the number of other industries that make use of animal by-products, which would be affected by people becoming vegan en-masse. Your bank notes? Not vegan. LCD TVs? Not vegan. Toothpaste? Not vegan. The bricks used to build your house? Not vegan.

The extremist views of the militant vegans are laughable. Even on this thread they're picking and choosing the comments they want to argue, but have absolutely failed to address the many arguments that dealing with the amount of meat and dairy we eat and the farming practices involved in that is probably a more reasoned way to go than a wholesale conversion to veganism. And that is because they can't.

I think a much more effective way to look at it would be reducing carbon footprint.

Vegans that are spreading their word will get more support if they approach it this way. People will feel they are doing their bit for the planet without feeling shamed into it.

It's about empowering people to make good choices, not bashing them with the poorer choices they are currently making.

I'm a foodie, I enjoy everything, but I'm also aware of animal welfare and I try to make sensible choices.

Some vegan food is divine, but it takes cooking skills to make.

Simple graduated changes to help people adjust will stick.

I think a 'reduce your carbon footprint by cooking X meals' with a link to recipes on You Tube would be more effective. Promote the cost effectiveness of it, as it can be much cheaper to eat good vegan food. But don't dwell on it being Vegan.

Yes, animal welfare is a huge concern, but you'll achieve more if you go in gently to inspire people.

Even swapping one day a week for an animal based diet would help if you multiply this up.

Because I don't want to. That's the only justification I need.

Can I ask AnnoyingVegan, do you use a car? Train? Do you ever go on holiday on a plane? How about deodorant, do you use aerosols?

Do you own a smartphone, do you wear synthetic materials?

How do you dispose of your rubbish, do you contribute to general waste going into landfill?

Until you are completely eco friendly, living in a hut in the woods, then please dont preach to me about what I should eat. You're a hypocrite.

Problem with vegans is they project their beliefs onto everyone else, via their smartphones made in sweatshops in China and then flown over to be sold on the consumer market.

I haven't RTFT but I just wanted to post this link:

theecologist.org/2012/may/01/dark-side-soya-how-one-super-crop-lost-its-way

Just one of your alternatives has massive implications on the environment and our bodies. Eat what you want/don't want to but stop trying to force your beliefs onto others!

Doesn’t change the fact that giving up meat and dairy is the single biggest thing a person can do to mitigate their environmental impact.

Biggest load of cockcustard I've heard since, well .... the last load

People pretend to hate vegans because we’re annoying and preachy but the real reason is your own guilty consciences.

No, it isn't. I don't mind vegans. I'm not over keen on you because you're an annoying, goady twat!

Veganism really is turning into a blumin religion- complete with ignorant bigots.

You eat your dinner and I'll eat mine.

Good luck trying to plant/grow/harvest plant based foods in difficult areas due to terrain, weather, etc., where currently animals can be raised for food.

Interesting to see what kinds of food crop you can plant and harvest on a steep rocky mountainside or in the North Pole.

Because food is one of the few pleasures in life.
I am cutting back on my meat intake but would never entirely give it up.
My kids are fussy and my son is allergic to all nuts, peas and beans which kind of limits his options and we try to eat as a family.
Just existing is bad for the planet to be honest. I am sure it will recover once the human race kills itself off which will inevitably happen somewhere down the line.

Mumsnet is pretty anti vegan so I’m afraid you’ll get slated even though yadnbu.

I agree with @Jasmin82. Eating the vegan way can have drastic effect on health. Vitamin B12 is the obvious issue (you cant get it from plants at all and being deficient in Vitamin B12 leds to many neurological issues...). Also in my experience, eating a vegan diet is HARD if you actually want to have a balanced diet. I dnt think many people/vegan actually are that careful which then leads to many other health problems (which do have a cost human and envionmental).

@Cam77, your point about science is anly true if the science behind it is strong. Calculations of the environmental impact of eating beef/chicken/usig a car are notorioulsy difficult. How far do you go back in the production chain for example? And more importantly, in the case of meat, wherehas the evluation been done?
In the case of meat (and dairy), the calculations have been done with the american system. The cows are all inside fed on 'imported foods'. And the meat will travel miles and miles away from the place it has been slaughered (see the size of the US!)
That is miles away from a cow rised on pasture in the farm next door, something you can quite easily find in the UK.

Fwiw, the fact all calculations have been from an american persective also explains why yur dint have numbers of lamb/mouton. They dont have many of them there.....

To that I would also add that to eat a balanced vegan diet, you need to eat foods that arent available locally, such as nuts, legumes etc.... I woud be curious to know what is the actual impact of having more people eating those on local populations. We know that the surge in eating avocados is at the root of drought in some areas for example.
Or much more land will we need of everyone was suddenly vegan? And more importantly, who would be bearing the cost for it (I gather not Western cuntries where a lot of the foods vegans need do not grow)

Basically if you think its as simple as 'science says we have to stop eating beef and dairy so we should' , then you are delluded too. Its much much more complicated than that.

I have to have dairy to stay healthy, as told to me by several medical professionals. I buy local though, and make effort to cut my carbon footprint in other ways. I also reduced the amount of meat I eat and incorporate vegetarian meals regularly.

Agree with the PP who said this fight should be more about options to reduce carbon footprint rather than going on the vegan warpath about a diet that simply won't suit everybody's health.