AIBU to think there’s no justification for eating meat and dairy any more?

[AnnoyingVegan]

People are educated now. People know that eating meat and dairy is disastrous for the planet. People know it’s causing an unprecedented climate crisis. People know it causes untold cruelty to animals.

So why are people still doing it? There is a vegan substitute for virtually every meat and dairy product you can think of. What is going on here?

The number of people I’ve seen on social media breaking their hearts over Australia shooting wild camels and horses because they drink too much water while still eating beef blows my mind.

You want to save the planet? Eat grains, pulses and veg when they are in season in this country. Buy only high welfare meat which has been fed on a low input grass system and reared locally. Stop supporting an industry that involves flying vegetables half way around the globe for your convenience. The carbon footprint on my herd of Lincoln red is significantly less than that if your South American vegan diet and ecologically, they were reared without mass deforestation so it's a win win.

THIS! The carbon footprint of vegan diets is unbelievable. If you want to save the planet, eat locally grown/reared produce when in season.

@Jasmin82
or even just vegetarian without at the very least putting our health/lives at risk.
You know that statement has absolutely zero basis in scientific fact, right? You might as well say wearing jeans will put you at risk of heart disease. Having a bath will give you cancer. Eating Christmas Dinner will put you at risk of growing a third ear. All these statements are of equal validity as yours.

This veaganuary nonsense is just jumping on the band wagon. As pp say eat local, eat in season, eat more real, fresh food. Dont just blindly follow supermarket dictation on what available. Promoting veg that isn't in season goes against any environmental argument because it travels to us via air. Going to your local farm shop to eat the veg they have just harvested is the only sensible advice and has the bonus of supporting your local community.

The global impact of beef and dairy is always calculated based on large-scale production in feedlots. I eat British beef (grass fed mainly on farms that increasingly include many wildlife friendly initiatives) and have my milk delivered by a local dairy. I completely reject the accusation that this is the worst thing I can do.

I beg to ask, if we all went vegan overnight, what should happen to all the livestock around the world, and how should farmers be compensated?

I’m guessing there’d be some kind of compensation scheme in the same way there was for slavery ending.

Also the animals would be taken to sanctuaries and allowed to reproduce at a natural rate rather than forced to over breed. There would naturally be fewer animals.

The likelihood is that it will happen slowly and the farmers would slowly move over to vegetables or something more profitable as demand changed.

I'm proud to say that I am a dairy farmer. I would like clarify a couple of things.
Milk does not contain pus nor does it contain antibiotics. We check the milk of every cow before she is milked and if it shows signs of a problem, the cow will be milked separately and the milk is discarded. We as an industry are doing as much as we can to improve the health and welfare of our animals, but if an animal is ill and needs antibiotics that milk is also discarded.
Yes cattle eat soy. We'd love our cows to eat nothing but grass or silage (preserved grass) but especially in the winter when they are housed they need extra food. Most of the soy or palm kernel that is fed is the husks that is left after the oil is taken out for human food. So a waste product is used.
A lot of people are concerned about bull calves, and it's an issue that weighs on the mind of many farmers as well. We personally rear all our bull calves for beef, dairy bred beef is delicioUs.
I hope this answers some questions that people may have, I am happy to answer others as well.

@ArtichokeAardvark
Do you really believe the extensive studies done on the relatively disastrous environmental impact of beef, pork and dairy do not take this into account? Really? Of course, fruit also has a relatively high footprint for the very reason you mentioned but these considerations are all factored into the research. Researchers have spent years researching the impact of various food groups, taking into account everything you mentioned and a load more besides. You honestly think the beef industry (for example) would let the accusation stand if it wasn’t absolutely based in reality? Come on...

There’s no such thing as ethical dairy, sorry

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Flying isn’t bad for the environment because I have built my own handmade glider, so leave me out of your mudslinging. In fact flying is far better for the environment than cycling, as bikes are often imported in from abroad.

@Cam77 You want to tell my GP and numerous health professionals they are wrong? My health deteriorates massively every single time I go even vegetarian.
But carry on, since you know my health conditions better than myself, I've only lived with them since I was 6, and been very lucky to not have been taken straight to hospital on 2 occasions my health deteriorated so badly.
So, again, why is it OK for me (and others who have similar health conditions) to put my life at risk for your idea of utopia?

Because it's tasty and humans are omnivores. You cannot eat a vegan diet without supplements, fact - fortified products are artificial unlike animal products with b12 naturally occurring. I won't judge your choices if you don't judge mine.

There are many of distractions to the vegan discussions, all the while the animals continue to be slaughtered in their trillions. Each one of these animals wanted to live. Not one asked to be killed.

We all need to move towards a sensible way to exist on this planet, vegans as much as omnivorous, why not start by getting these poor victims out of these torture chambers?

YABU ...for people like myself with legit allergies / intolerances who have to read every single label before eating something... It is almost impossible to find vegan food that I can eat. And it is tasteless processed shite as well. Also, you cannot get vitamin B12 in the diet without eating either dairy or meat.

@AnnoyingVeganim not saying you specifically shouldn’t stick to your current diet. I wouldn’t encourage a coeliac to start gourging bread either. But for the vast majority bread is fine, even healthy. The vast majority of doctors would find the proposition that vegetarianism is by its nature unhealthy absolutely laughable. (I say by its nature as any diet can be healthy on unhealthy based on quantities, fresh or processed, cooking methods etc etc)

And I avoid processed foods- meat, veg, potatoes, more natural than the processed vegan substitutes

The other day a poster was asking why people find vegans annoying and take the piss. I do believe you've just answered her question OP.

@okiedokieme

Animals get their B12 from the nutrients in the soil. Most B12 supplements are fed to animals - not humans - as the soil is no longer as rich nutrients as it once was. As a result plenty of meateaters also have B12 deficiencies. This is basic stuff...

I’m not even a vegan by the way.

Eat local, well sourced produce....I personally see cruelty in how many 'human' lives would be effected if the world went vegan tomorrow - put some safeguards in place for those people before jumping on the ethical train...and make sure you've got a valid ticket!

@Jasmin82
Of course not saying you specifically shouldn’t stick to your current diet. I wouldn’t encourage a coeliac to start gourging bread either. If I ate a steak I would throw up within an hour or two. Back on topic, the vast majority of doctors would find the proposition that vegetarianism is by its nature unhealthy absolutely laughable. (I say by its nature as any diet can be healthy on unhealthy based on quantities, fresh or processed, cooking methods etc etc)

@ahenderson270 I think perhaps I was not clear. Of course if some people physically cannot be vegan, eg coeliacs, then I’m not saying everyone should be. What I was trying to get across earlier - and what is backed up by the research article I posted is that the way we produce food in the world today must change. And that does mean a huge reduction in the amount of meat and dairy consumed. I am not vegan - I was for 23 years, but now veggie for last 13 years and weaning myself back to a vegan diet. But any really significant reduction in meat eating - sourcing from non intensive producers has to be welcome

Some misconceptions though. ahenderson you say that if we all went veggie then MORE soya would need to be produced. Totally untrue. The whole point is - animals produce as little as 10% of what they consume. If the soya used was just for food not feed, then LESS land would be needed even if everyone was vegan. The article I posted makes this very clear - the dreadful inefficiency of land use when either grazing animals or growing food for them to eat. Intensive methods and soil depletion, the huge amount of cheap meat now required mean that animals have to be fed calorie intensive food such as grains, seeds and soya. If the market for lots of cheap meat was drastically reduced, the vast monoculture depleting our soil would not be needed. Grazing would be more sustainable, less need for supplementing animal feed

You also say that it is expensive to have a vegan diet. Totally untrue. A vegan diet is NOT about processed junk food - this is the problem with today’s veganism. When I was a student in the 80s I lived extremely cheaply by cooking my own food from scratch. It is possible to buy dried pulses/lentils etc very cheaply. Same with decent seasonal veg. Spices from Asian grocers are extremely cheap. It’s not about cost, it’s about people knowing how to cook. It IS a healthy diet. It DOES take research to ensure all nutrients are there, but how many omnivores do you know with really poor diets?

Animal welfare is another issue. Just to say, anyone who thinks that slaughter is humane, that farmed pigs are happy, I think you are being misled.

because i like the taste? meat alternatives are crap

Genuinely curious, if everyone stopped consuming meat/dairy products tomorrow, what would vegans want to happen to cows/sheep/chickens etc?

Would you want them to go extinct gradually? Would you want them all culled immediately? Or would you want to still see them in fields? If it's the latter, should we conserve all livestock breeds (of which there are many)? Or should we just pick a few breeds of cow/ a few breeds of sheep etc and just continue to breed them for show? How would we choose which ones? Wouldn't this be a very expensive endevour? Where would this money come from?

Bore off

Meat and animal products are essential for human development, humans evolved into the complex and intelligent species they are today by eating meat and as far as scientists can tell there was a very strong link between the point when humans started to consume animal products and a big jump in our evolution to more intelligent creatures.

A fully vegan diet can be so deficient in nutrients that it can cause serious physical harm to how people develop into adults, I know 2 people who have developed serious mental & physical problems (such as tics, paranoia, seizures) that multiple doctors have attributed to their vegan diet from birth.

I assume it's possible to get all the nutrients you might need whilst being vegan but I think it's extremely difficult (especially if doing so from birth or there's other factors like ceoliac, low carb etc)