To think British folk don't tolerate "privileged complaining" like the US?

[GinDaddy]

yes this is another topic partially related to Duke/Duchess of Sussex. If you don't like this, apologies in advance

I read a thread on here titled "The racists have won" regarding Harry and Meghan's withdrawl from public life.

AIBU to have a different perspective entirely? That their thin-skinnedness and endless preaching about the issuesdrew more vitriol towards them - and their whole approach was very badly suited to British life?

Bear with me :

Yes as a mixed-race (white/caribbean) person, I winced at the "outta Compton" headlines that greeted the latest addition to the Firm. I despaired at the "blood-thickening" comments that were made about Meghan's heritage and any children.

I'm not suggesting that any of this could simply be overlooked, and for sure it has an impact on a person's mental health.

Yet it precipitated dozens of column inches and angry statements from Harry, with strange and emotive allusions to his mother's death. It triggered that dreadful ITV stuff where Meghan says her and Harry are "existing, not living" - a comment which was extraordinary when you consider some of the challenges British people face. (Who is advising these people here?!)

Such commentary may be described as "woke" in the US. It might be considered on-trend to speak out and stand up to such things.

However in the UK, I feel it's more a country of deeds not words . To borrow a cricket analogy, being in UK public life is a bit like Test cricket. You can't come out on the attack or you'll lose your wicket within the hour. Instead, you will get bouncers hurled at you for the first few sessions of your innings, and you have to bat time and survive, dig in, and then start to accumulate once you've seen off a few.

AIBU to think Harry and Meghan could have ridden all this out if they had quietly gone about public life, working on a few select British-focused charities, supporting those closest to succession, and simply following the Duchess of Cambridge approach? You might be "Waity Katy" when we first meet you, but in time you'll be accepted because it's the British way to take the piss, then quietly treat you as a mate once time has passed.

I might be VU here as I realise they've had a rougher ride than most. But all this emotion seems to have led them into a corner where they've lashed out.

AIBU to think it's kind of in the British culture not to endlessly hand-wring in public in this regard?

It's not what they have done but the way they have done it that grates.

They should never have married. It was a whirlwind romance between two people who have very little in common

Like someone on Radio4 said this morning, Meghan was hoping to be revered and idolised as somewhere between Greta T. and Amal Clooney.
Trouble is, she's just a two-bit actress who falls out with most everyone she comes into contact with, is probably a sociopath

How on earth do you think you can possibly know all this?

YNBU I agree. I also hate how so often the reaction to Meghan is either one of thinly veiled racism or she can do no wrong because she’s suffered racism.

It is possible to acknowledge both that a)she has had a lot of unfair press and racism seems to underpin that and b)she must have been aware of how marrying Harry would affect her life, the public duty required when taxpayers find your lavish lifestyle, and that her actions seem to suggest she was more interested in her own fame than maintaining the institution.

Just as it is possible to think Harry is entitled to leave the Royal Family and is taking the piss by expecting the public to fund his security.

They have every right to leave the RF. I don’t think anyone denies that. I personally would be happy for the whole institution to go. But I also find it pretty galling to say “We’re leaving because being in the RF is so hard (the castles, the private jets, the luxury holidays, the nannies!) but have trademarked our name so we can make loads of money from being royals”. Zara and Peter Phillips are not working Royals, but haven’t trademarked their names, tried to hawk their baby photos or moaned about their privileged lives. Of course being under such scrutiny as a working royal is hard, but that is part of the deal you make when you take taxpayers money for your wedding, house etc. To moan about it when you’re visiting African shanty towns is disgusting.

@AsMuchUseAsAMarzipanDildo

Great post and really agree that both can be true.

I think the trademarking of the Sussex Royal name is the indicator for me that this isn't just about escaping the admitted cruelty of the British press.

Yes, they'll need something to have an income stream from in order to achieve that independence away from scrutiny.

But they've barely done a year of public service as a couple. This is a very early moment to be deciding such unprecedented things, the existence and profitability of which could have huge implications for the Royal Family and how they are viewed.

I am not the "Meghan is a witch" camp. I just think this is horribly cynical. As someone said on another thread, no one appreciates someone who comes into a senior role within a firm, and then within 10 minutes, decides that the fundamental strategy of the firm is wrong, and wilfully goes against everything the firm has set out to its shareholders that it is going to do.

It's not to say that reform wasn't needed, but it was up to the Queen, Prince Charles, and other senior members to work through that collegiately with the new members and new ideas.

I agree OP.
As a Canadian who now lives in the UK, I love the UK attitude. And I am not surprised at all that Meghan has chosen to move to Canada - her and Harry's faux victimhood and snowflakery will get more traction there.

As someone said on another thread, no one appreciates someone who comes into a senior role within a firm, and then within 10 minutes, decides that the fundamental strategy of the firm is wrong, and wilfully goes against everything the firm has set out to its shareholders that it is going to do. I hadn’t seen this, but so true. They don’t seem to understand the entire RF is essentially tolerated by many here, because there’s an implicit contract “We’ll continue to fund you and maintain your institution and privilege; in return you won’t meddle in politics, won’t use your position for personal gain and will enthusiastically cut ribbons at day centres.

Sorry bold fail

Does the social contract also include being hounded by the press at every step (funded by a bloodthirsty public) and being abused relentlessly through said media and social media and essentially hazed until you pass some sick test and are no longer a fresher? Yeah, no thanks.

I'm not a fan of them but have watched the whole thing unfold from their engagement onwards with a sick sense of disbelief. The way they (and all the female in-laws including Kate, Diana & Fergie) are viciously treated is disgusting, I don't care how much you resent the institution or disapprove of their behaviour or think you own them because you fund them - if you hate the RF that damned much then get off your ass and get rid of them. But you don't hound, abuse and bully people and expect them to say please and thank you for it. Having seen exactly that expectation play out over and over and the howls of indignation when someone finally says piss off - personally I think they should monetize the heck out of whatever they can. You Brits sure don't treat the RF like it's a dignified institution worthy of being upheld so why should they? Perhaps they'll actually be able to beat the tabs at their own game - flood the market with items and the stories and pics devalue. Maybe this will break the awful cycle of dehumanising, disgusting behaviour around the RF and particularly the female in-laws.

Absolutely. The way the British press treats RF female in-laws is disgusting. But the point is that no-one forces them to be in the public eye and, therefore, open to criticism. H&M could have chosen to retire from public life entirely - as have Zara, Peter, Edward, Sophie etc - and they would have been largely left alone bar the occasional report. But that would mean giving up their HRH, “Royal” branding and taxpayer money...and doing an actual job.

And yes I do think they owe us the occasional opening of a hospital or speech on mental health. Mental health services in this country have been decimated, hundreds of thousands of disabled people have died due to government funding cuts - while money has been found for their weddings, houses, private jets, couture dresses, inequality in the UK is the worst it’s ever been. The Queen, Charles, Kate etc seem to actually recognise the injustice of this and therefore make a speech at a soup kitchen and get it publicity and funding.

For H&M to take money from our taxes, use it to build up a brand and then seek to use it only to further their personal wealth, absolutely stinks.

Prince Edward still gets public money.

Well it would've been nice for them to have been given a decent chance to actually do their jobs. Any public appearances I saw were followed by abuse in the press over some small misstep (shoes, proximity to Kate, unfavourable comparison with Kate, facial expression, demureness or lack thereof, clothes, rumoured work ethic, PDA, being American, being "not an English rose", not Harry's type, posture wrong etc etc etc) and bitching on the internet attributing malicious motives to every small move when you can't possibly know that. So it looks to me like they tried to do their duty, were hounded and humiliated at every step for bloodsport and have decided to get out of Dodge while they can. I mean really, is it going to take a few high profile suicides before you lot back off? Worse than flipping high school.

And yes. There are definite critiques to be made of the RF and the money and lifestyle side of things - but that is ALL of them, men included, Queen included, palace included. Someone signed off on all those expenses, I very much doubt Harry has unfettered access to royal coffers. Take down the institution if you feel it is unjust rather than ripping into the nearest easy target and getting pissed off when they don't show their abusers the "proper respect". Personally respect goes both ways and Britain has really shown itself up on the world stage here.

And honestly, as a Kiwi married to an American half the critiques of Meghan are from very basic cultural misunderstandings and differences on both sides. "It's not wrong, it's just different" is an incredibly helpful mantra whenever you're dealing with someone from another culture. Would have helped a hell of a lot in this situation, but hey - "different = evil" is so much easier and more fun to get outraged by and sells more papers to boot.

Prince Edward still gets public money.

I take it you mean Andrew.

Well exactly. I didn’t notice all the clamouring for him to have his titles taken away from him either.

He must be in seventh heaven over all this. Who gives a shit about his behaviour when they can lay into H&M?

For H&M to take money from our taxes, use it to build up a brand and then seek to use it only to further their personal wealth, absolutely stinks.

Exactly. So selfish. And devious.
Also using millions of public money to renovate Frogmore Cottage, then unilaterally dictating that they will keep it as their UK residence after they have reduced ties with the Royal Family, without even having consulted the Queen who owns it.

Again, worst possible interpretation of events which is easy enough when you're already primed to believe the worst, attributing motives you can't possibly know anything about and using selectively reported "facts".

To me it simply looks like they were committed to the duties involved in the RF, were excited to get to work (building a brand being part of that), and had set their life up in England for the long term - only to find out their position was untenable and threatening their health and well-being. They have taken action that they may very well have felt forced into - and no, not done in the best way but again that reads to me like people who feel they have no other option and just need to get out. Have been there myself, it's a horrible situation to be in.

Whether you agree with the expenditures on Frogmore or not (ageing and in need of extensive renovations anyway, which the Sussexes paid a decent portion of themselves and the rest covered by income earned through the Crown Estates not your taxes but let's not let that get in the way of the pitchforks) or the use of it, your opinion does not equal fact about their motives or intentions. Who knows, maybe they want to visit family but not have contact with Andrew? I still find it unbelievable the UK has lost its mind over the exit of minor royals but is apparently ok with RF being involved with sex traffickers and paedophiles? I wouldn't want my kids anywhere near him and I would have a lot less trust in a family who seems to have turned a blind eye.

But hey, MM didn't wear pantyhose or gets up at 5am to work or has a room for yoga at her house or has a 'brand' or is too confident or is not English or doesn't shut up and be quiet like women are meant to do - so much worse, right?!

Anyway I'm going to leave this conversation now, people will believe whatever they want to believe sadly, sometimes without a shred of evidence. If you're wondering how Trump got voted in - this is how. It's easy to make villains, far harder to take a broader view of human actions and of various issues we face.

For my part I'm probably too close to this. My sister left her abusive husband and was raked through the coals on social media, with lies and slander and vicious attacks on her actions / inactions, on her motives and on who she is. It was horrendous to watch the animal-like behaviour coming from an outraged mob towards someone who was just trying to protect herself and her kids from a bad situation. And how much worse it made the whole thing, how much more traumatic just so strangers could spout their opinion on the bitch who left their mate. I'm well aware of how any one action can be read in a number of different ways and how that reading is so often determined by what you want to believe about it, and is so often completely off the mark as to what actually happened. So I'm utterly unwilling to participate in the same pack-mentality when it comes to anyone else, royal or otherwise.

The Crown Estates contributes to the government’s money as part of a deal to avoid the monarch contributing to defence, debt and other national costs (ie paying their own taxes!). If money that should go into government coffers, ends up paying for the Queen to gift and refurbish H&M’s house, it’s literally been diverted before it can pay for the many women’s refuges, child protection services etc that have lost government funding.

You talk about making lazy, broad assumptions - but then immediately assume that anyone who disagrees with the RF taking the piss must automatically condone Prince Andrew and support Trump. You need to examine your own lack of nuance. And yes, maybe leave the conversation if you’re going to overlay what sounds like a horrific experience for your sister. I hope she’s safe now.

If anyone dares say they don’t like MM then they’re branded a racist. People can actually not like others which has nothing to do with the colour of their skin! I’m sick of the racist card being pulled with Harry and Meghan tbh.

“Thank you for asking because not many people have asked if I’m O.K.” Did she expect everyone to ask if she was ok? She married into the RF, she knew what she was marrying into and if she didn’t then she was a fool. I have no time for any of the Royals tbh.

Actually that's not what I said, but have at it. If you read my posts properly what I said is there are issues with the RF and if you don't like it or think it's unjust, get out there and advocate to change it. Don't bully the nearest easy target for your anger, it achieves nothing but harm for someone who you don't know - and let's face it, the RF were screwing the British public long before MM showed up. She didn't cause this situation, she simply married into it. Rational, logical and valid public anger should centre around the actual issues and movements for change, not a particular person.

As far as Andrew & Trump goes, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. It is utterly crazy that MM has generated more public anger and press attention than someone alleged to have paid to have sex with a teenage sex slave. Even at the height of that scandal MM threads here outnumbered Andrew threads, and the few Andrew threads I visited derailed pretty quickly into bitchiness towards MM. So yes, eyebrows hard raised at that - it doesn't look good. Obviously within the British public there will be people appalled by Andrew, and people appalled by both MM & Andrew. But the difference between how the 2 are treated is just almost beyond belief.

And Trump - he ran his campaign pointing the finger at various 'villains' who were apparently screwing the hard-done-by working class American public, taking money jobs and resources from the hands of people who were truly struggling. That's how he got elected - he took justified public anger and unrest, whipped it up with lies, slander and half-truths and then directed it towards convenient targets. If you find that abominable, as I do, then perhaps you might advocate for a society that treats ALL people as human beings first and foremost, and refuse to make targets out of whoever is a convenient outlet for your anger.

Again, like I said, take down the institution if you think it is unjust. But one newcomer is not the person at fault for a crappy system, and to punish her for it is a horrible thing to do.

I agree with AsMuchUse. Also the couple have rushed all this. Why not wait? Why not have Christmas with teh Queen? Why not try to old says that work? Why not present the baby on the steps of the maternity home? What is wrong with just fitting in for a bit even if after 3 or 5 years when you've given it a fair chance you decide to give it up and disappear into obscurity?

If they do intend to make money from the trade mark then that needs to be agreed with the royal family as they are using part of a brand in a sense and you would expect some kind of traed mark agreement/licence typr thing setting out on what it could be used and how given the titles have come from the Crown. Prince Charles does use the Duchy Organic brand but that is pretty traditional British farming type stuff consistent with the royal family's land interests etc.

If anyone dares say they don’t like MM then they’re branded a racist

But none of us know MM - we only know what the tabloids tell us - and they are only interested in clicks to feed their advertisement profits.So exaggerate, makeup, put spin on whatever they print.

So why else would you dislike someone you've never met and never will other than how she presents in pics.

Xenia I suppose they could have waited. However having been in the depths of a bad situation threatening mental health, having no good options and having to make a decision anyway because something has to give - I'm not willing to judge. Sometimes you do what it takes to survive. We also have no idea what goes on behind closed doors or what sort of family issues were involved at Christmas. Again I'm not willing to judge a situation or people I actually know nothing about.

The expectation of "baby on the steps" thing really does annoy me though. I didn't think it was tradition for minor royals anyway? In any case I think it's misogynistic crap to expect that from women who've just given birth - nice if they choose to do it, but it shouldn't be expected. To echo your question back, why not have an appearance with the baby 1 or 2 weeks after birth? Why straight away? How hard is it to wait? Birth is a crazy physical, mental and emotional experience and not everyone responds to it the same way or is capable of attending a photo call 12 hours after, even with all the help. Some women are up and about within minutes, some take a lot longer. My own experiences of the first 24hrs involved much pain, vomiting, crying and enough blood to rival a horror movie (went through clothes like crazy, ran down legs and spattered on floor etc). So yeah, I think it's ridiculous to expect any woman to do a photo call the day of birth, and then to get angry when she chooses not to. It should not be "royal duty" or whatever in this day and age - women are not machines or dolls.

I don't agree with posing on the hospital steps either, unless it's something they really wanted to do, but if you are going to post a picture of your baby's feet on Instagram, why not post one of his face? It would have cost them nothing to do that.
If you want public support (and money) you kind of have to give as well as take.

Lots of royals who have given birth in a hospital has been photographed coming out of it, there are photos of Princess Anne with her babies - it's not a new thing at all or an invention of William and Kate's.

Did Princess Anne come out after one day? We used to spend several days in hospital in the past. Not turfed out like now.

It's possibly unfortunate that the HMQ has stayed on the throne so long as there might have been more chance of changes if she'd stepped down.
Princes Anne's, Prince Andrew's, Princess Margaret's, Prince Charles' marriages have all failed. William and Kate look pretty miserable, or at least he does imv so no guarantee that they'll make it either. The only 'success' has been Edward's - possibly because he is not in the limelight.

Zara Tindell and Peter ? seem to be living ok lives, I don't even know which country they're in, no one is insisting they step up occasionally, seems they can do what suits them. That should have been the case for other royals from Princess Di onwards, changes should have been made then, to make them more like European monarchies for example, but the circus was allowed to continue.

It's time for big changes.

Lots of royals who have given birth in a hospital has been photographed coming out of it

So?

The Queen wasn’t btw.