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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if you think there will be a second coming?

891 replies

LuluBellaBlue · 03/01/2020 18:29

This is inspired by the new Netflix show Messiah, about a second coming.

I really hope this doesn’t upset or offend anyone and people can share their beliefs and thoughts openly and without prejudice or judgement as I know this can be very sensitive for some people.

Following on from —binge— watching this series I did a bit of googling and it seems both Christian and Muslim regions predict this. (Not researched if any others do yet)

I’m not very well informed about different regions but the concept of this programme has really interested me, I find it fascinating that this could, maybe? actually happen!

Do you think there could be a second coming?!

(And what would it actually mean for the world? A rise in consciousness? Mass healing???)

YABU - no don't be so daft!
YANBU - yes, this could happen, why not?!

OP posts:
Madhairday · 04/01/2020 08:59

Outwith, yes. Sad

SaskiaRembrandt · 04/01/2020 09:02

Madhairday Thanks for responding. I'm familiar with Ehrman's work, but I asked for primary sources, not interpretations. The personal blog you linked to is also, obviously, modern

I've already discussed Tacitus upthread, but the other sources you mention are not contemporary primary sources, they were all later. And of the ones I'm familiar with, they discuss Christianity in the context of it being an emerging and increasingly powerful phenomena, they give little to no credence to idea that Christ was divine, or even a real character.

You claim there is more evidence for the existence of Christ than for Julius Caesar - there are contemporary documents, both from the Romans and the wider world which give contemporary accounts of Caesar, (for example, Cicero, who was contemporaneous*) plus his own writing. So, if what you saying is true, there are an even greater number of contemporary accounts of Christ. Would you please point me in the direction of these?

Madhairday · 04/01/2020 09:04

And Outwith that's what always gets me about the whole end times narrative so prevalent in certain branches of the church - they are so concerned about fitting us into end times prophecy and get so excited about the end being nigh that they tend to forget the very real issues that face our planet, most often caused by our own destruction, and in fact write them off as fantasy - CF climate change etc. It makes me very angry, actually, as a Christian who believes we are to care for our world as mandated by God, that it is so easily written off by those more concerned by end times calamity than the suffering in the here and now and near future :(

SaskiaRembrandt · 04/01/2020 09:05

Madhairday I take it you have read the early Christian primary sources and are not relying on the book you linked to?

Lweji · 04/01/2020 09:06

Ahem. Catholics are Christians. I know "Christian" has been somehow appropriated, but all Christian faiths should claim it back.
I'd rather call them Evangelicals or whatever, but all religions based on Christ are Christian.

Iatetotheparty · 04/01/2020 09:07

I believe the film Life of Brian may have hit the nail on the head. Which is why it was banned ( in Scotland at least ) when I was growing up.

SerenDippitty · 04/01/2020 09:10

Article about the evidence for Jesus’s existence

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/14/what-is-the-historical-evidence-that-jesus-christ-lived-and-died

Bezalelle · 04/01/2020 09:11

I'm Jewish and believe that the Moshiach (messiah) hasn't come yet. However, I take it very metaphorically. Moshiach won't be a person, but a shift in the way we think, perceive, or act.

SaskiaRembrandt · 04/01/2020 09:19

Article about the evidence for Jesus’s existence

From a doctor of divinity who admits there is little to no primary evidence contemporaneous with the life of Christ.

I'll be honest say I am inclined to believe such a person did exist, and was not a Robin Hood or King Arthur type figure, ie: a fictitious character who was formed from an amalgamation of several real people. But, saying that he did exist is a very long way from saying he was the son of God. I'm also perplexed by the dubious 'evidence', and the necessity of using such 'evidence' to prove something that should be a matter of faith.

Madhairday · 04/01/2020 09:21

You claim there is more evidence for the existence of Christ than for Julius Caesar

I really didn't, I said I thought that would be historically untenable. Someone else made that claim upthread. I did say that there is more evidence for Jesus than a lot of other figures of antiquity.

You seem to discount Tacitus. He wasn't contemporary but he lived in the same century, which in terms of writings of antiquity was close to the time of the events. He was also a careful historian, known to be incredibly picky about his sources, so would have checked them with care. He was close enough to the events to have traced back the line of evidence to the actual person. He said this earlier in his work, about hearsay:

My object in mentioning and refuting this story is, by a conspicuous example, to put down hearsay, and to request that all those into whose hands my work shall come not to catch eagerly at wild and improbable rumours in preference to genuine history.
(Tacitus, Annals, IV.11)

In his passage he made mention of the persecution of Christians and of Christ, who 'suffered the extreme penalty' under Pilate. I can't imagine how this could be discounted as not being evidence for the existence of this Christ, not the least because of Tacitus' well known reputation as a historian of great care.

Josephus is the other historian operating at a similar time - near contemporary, and makes explicit mention of Jesus as a man who preached, performed signs and died by crucifixion - even taking out the later interpolation (the lines are obvious.)

To ask for contemporary writings is problematic because Jesus was not a well known figure like Caesar who would afford any such writings. He was one of any numbers of preachers in the area claiming to be the Messiah, and the evidence we have about him tends to exceed what we'd expect for such. Yet the gospel writings are within just 3 decades and much Pauline material and the book of James for example far earlier than this (the fifties in some cases), which takes it back even closer to the events.

I include the early Christian writings simply as more examples of historical evidence of there being this person who started this remarkable movement - again,.them being close to the time in terms of writings of antiquity. I know I keep banging on about that, sorry about that! - but it's so important to establish the general rules of what we are looking at here, rather than apply the lens of 21st century historicity.

I included the link because it is quite a comprehensive review of the evidence you ask for from a skeptical scholar, as is Ehrman's book.

Madhairday · 04/01/2020 09:24

I take it you have read the early Christian primary sources and are not relying on the book you linked to?

Yes, of course - I find them fascinating! I have a ton of books of early Christian writings as well as Josephus' works etx. Why do you ask?

CourtneyB123 · 04/01/2020 09:24

You should type in Zietgiest religion clip into YouTube, it will explain how christianity came about in the first place

Prettyvase · 04/01/2020 09:27

Religion is the basis for the rich variety of human culture in the world. From colourful saris to beautiful temples; from celebrations of life turning events to thoughtful offerings; from comfort in times of stress to bringing people together such as feasting of delicious food on religiously important dates; from familial social cohesion and harmony to giving purpose to life.

Religion is also the basis of misogynism, many wars, intolerance, hatred; the perpetrators of "them and us" and close minded thinking; the division of society, hierarchy and class due to the imbalance of power.

To believers, there is no question of the existence of Jesus and Mohammed (peace be upon him) and the sheer volume and influence of art and literature devoted to religion over the centuries in times without photography or social media cannot be discounted.

It is also true that the only organisations that could afford to commission the huge works of art and architecture we see today are religious bodies such as the church and other powerful and wealthy rulers.

So what does that tell us? If you are devote or orthodox in your own faith but are intolerant or dismissive of other faiths you are on one hand living in harmony with your beliefs but on the other hand perpetuating the evil we see in the world: intolerance, hatred and misogyny.

Which goes back to the basics that there is no light without dark, no right without wrong, no good without evil.

There aren't many societies in the world where there is freedom of speech and religious belief and gender inequality laws that aren't based on a strict interpretation of religious text.

People in the UK take so much for granted. But if you feel you have no purpose in life, no strong social bond with others, isolation and loneliness then that could also be because of a lack of strong faith which binds community together. I would suggest anyone who feels lonely and without purpose to be open to change their mindset and learn from others.

Whether or not there is a first of second coming is a red herring, the importance of it is it opens up the human mind to hope when there might not be any as the
human imagination is THE most powerful force in life which exists in all of us.

The power of the mind is being explored by scientists for good reason. Many observed in concentration camps for example, that once hope had gone the will to live also went away. Where there is hope there is life. Many feats of human endurance are evidence of the power of human belief.

We should never underestimate the power of faith/ belief/ mind over matter or whatever we want to call it.

RuffleCrow · 04/01/2020 09:29

Already happened and not half as good as the self-titled debut Wink

Seriously, no. I think belief in it stems from a literal rather than poetic interpretation of religious texts. I do believe in eternal life on an energetic level though, because, scientifically speaking, we're all a mass of vibrations and so is everything else and energy can't really 'end' it can only be transformed.

Madhairday · 04/01/2020 09:30

saying that he did exist is a very long way from saying he was the son of God. I'm also perplexed by the dubious 'evidence', and the necessity of using such 'evidence' to prove something that should be a matter of faith

Now yes, that is a different matter. But I was attempting to address some of the assertions made on this thread about the existence of Jesus. Jesus as son of God is another aspect altogether which is to be based on the NT writings but can also be traced through some early church writings and creeds.

The necessity of evidence? For me, faith isn't something without cause. Faith is trust in someone who has earned my trust, who I have gathered evidence about. I would struggled to have faith in someone who I was unable to establish facts about. And I suppose it's also to do with addressing some of the misinformation out there, for instance the assertions up thread about mystery cults being parallels to Jesus. I am fond of evidence-based matters, in science and in faith, and find no conflict between the two.

Mockers2020Vision · 04/01/2020 09:32

Yeshua Bar Yusuf is about as historically real as King Arthur or Robin Hood. It is not entirely impossible that the fiction written about him was based in some small part on one or more real people.

The veracity or otherwise of the ministry of Jesus rests on the inherent sense it contains, not on any holy conjuring tricks with sardine sandwiches.

Madhairday · 04/01/2020 09:33

You should type in Zietgiest religion clip into YouTube, it will explain how christianity came about in the first place

Only if you like to get your facts from utterly unsubstantiated and debunked narratives which were circulated by a number of unscholarly sources, largely self published, in the 19th/20th centuries. Each 'fact' in that film can be completely laid bare as bunkum, I'm afraid, and the vast majority of scholars will assert this - including Richard Dawkins!

longwayoff · 04/01/2020 09:36

Sardines? Imagine what he could have done with a Mumsnet 🐔 chicken.

Madhairday · 04/01/2020 09:38

Heck, longwayoff, that would've fed the five million, at the very least. With leftovers for soup.

CaptSkippy · 04/01/2020 09:40

I think this sums it up best:

cult + time = religion

Madhairday · 04/01/2020 09:40

Kong Arthur and Robin Hood are stories woven and steeped in legend, though. The Jesus story is substantiated by eyewitness accounts and near contemporary historical accounts. There is simply no comparison.

Madhairday · 04/01/2020 09:41

King, not Kong. Grin

Happymum12345 · 04/01/2020 09:42

I was pretty skeptical before I became a Christian & could have written a lot of the posts where people are mocking believers. I believe in Jesus and his second coming. Faith is just that-belief, trust & hope. I am infinitely more peaceful than I was before.

Madhairday · 04/01/2020 09:44

cult + time = religion

I agree with you, which is why I think Christianity stands out as different - the time between the events and the writings is so incredibly short, compared to other such accounts in the period. To have just 20-30 years between the events and the first written accounts, in a society which already practices rigorous oral tradition and history, is quite outstanding. This story cannot come under the heading of legend, because there simply isn't enough time involved.

SaskiaRembrandt · 04/01/2020 09:45

MadHairDay

Yes, of course - I find them fascinating! I have a ton of books of early Christian writings as well as Josephus' works etx. Why do you ask?

Because you never mention or reference them - as a theologian I would have thought this would be an obvious thing to do. Every theologian I know is only too keen to provide primary evidence. You only ever give links to secondary sources.

I apologise for saying you made the claim about Caesar. However, you do say that the evidence for Christ (OTTOMH) 'stands tall'. So please point me towards it.

You seem to discount Tacitus. He wasn't contemporary but he lived in the same century, which in terms of writings of antiquity was close to the time of the events. He was also a careful historian, known to be incredibly picky about his sources, so would have checked them with care. He was close enough to the events to have traced back the line of evidence to the actual person. He said this earlier in his work, about hearsay:

I’m not discounting Tacitus – I’m a historian, I would never be so arrogant. But, as you admit, he was contemporaneous, and he would be the first to admit his account was only secondary. I’d also add there are suggestions some of his work has been edited, probably by later Roman administrators, but I’m on the fence about that.

Josephus is the other historian operating at a similar time - near contemporary, and makes explicit mention of Jesus as a man who preached, performed signs and died by crucifixion - even taking out the later interpolation (the lines are obvious.)

Josephus was also not contemporary.

To ask for contemporary writings is problematic because Jesus was not a well known figure like Caesar who would afford any such writings. He was one of any numbers of preachers in the area claiming to be the Messiah, and the evidence we have about him tends to exceed what we'd expect for such. Yet the gospel writings are within just 3 decades and much Pauline material and the book of James for example far earlier than this (the fifties in some cases), which takes it back even closer to the events.

It's true there will be little evidence about an ordinary person, but you say there is a huge amount of evidence for the existence of Christ. For it to be considered real evidence it would have to be first-hand, or at least contemporary accounts, not later works.

I include the early Christian writings simply as more examples of historical evidence of there being this person who started this remarkable movement - again,.them being close to the time in terms of writings of antiquity. I know I keep banging on about that, sorry about that! - but it's so important to establish the general rules of what we are looking at here, rather than apply the lens of 21st century historicity.

The early Christian accounts are very interesting evidence of the emergence of a religion, they do not give us any primary evidence about the founder of that religion. It’s a shame, because it would be fascinating is it could be found but unfortunately all we have to go is the later testimony.

*I included the link because it is quite a comprehensive review of the evidence you ask for from a skeptical scholar, as is Ehrman's book.&

I didn’t ask for a review – I’m a historian, I’m aware of the arguments around the subject. I’m asking for the evidence of Christ’s life and existence.

I’ll repeat, I’m not actually doubting he did exist. I just think you do your cause no favours by making claims for evidence which has never been found. Using secondary sources and modern analysis does not constitute compelling evidence.

Also, faith is supposed to be just that, faith. Not something you need evidence to justify or reinforce. If a person needs evidence, then that suggests that their faith will disappear the moment someone produces evidence to the contrary

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