To not get the vegan meat thing.

[Katzia]

I just don't get it. Surely if you're vegan/ vegetarian you don't want things to taste of meat which you have foresworn, so why want a fake meat taste. I just don't get the fake steak, fake bacon etc thing. Be vegan/ vegetarian or just eat meat. It's one or the other.

@MikeUniformMike people won't stop eating animals all in one go. The demand will reduce slowly over time meaning that humans will stop breeding these animals gradually. There's not going to be some bizarre future where they roam the landscape looking for human interaction.

Also, a cow that needs human intervention to stay comfortable.... That doesn't sound very natural to me...

@Rewilo not good for anything but sheep... Or to be reclaimed by wildlife... That seems a lot better to me

Organically reared animals rely on humans. They get ill, get infections etc. They need husbandry. It would be cruel not to look after them.

So all the land that can only grow grass won’t be used for growing crops. Fine.

Now please explain to me why this is a problem.

Also I’m confused as to why people are acting and if the UK will only be limited to using plants growing in the UK, the large majority of the vegetables we eat now is grown abroad so I’m failing to see why this is a problem.

@letsghostdance exactly! It won’t happen overnight but slowly over decades. Less livestock animals will be bred as demand falls for their meat so there won’t be a time where there are millions of cows roaming around the British countryside begging for humans to milk them.

It’s like talking to a brick wall.

@letsghostdance, a dairy cow is a result of careful breeding. It is about as natural as a pedigree pug.

I don't even eat meat, but I resent people saying complete nonsense about farming.

@WellErrr

I’m working with a family who have been moved into a mobile home (temporary accommodation) four miles from the nearest Aldi. Lidl is even further away. The mum doesn’t drive. Public transport here is a joke.

The local shop is a Co-op, which is way more expensive than the big supermarkets. The mum has never learned to cook. There used to be classes for cooking on a budget at the local church but they’re no longer running as they can’t get the volunteers.

If she walks once a week to Iceland (two miles each way) she can buy cheap freezer food that cooks in under half an hour in the oven, no extra ingredients required. Why wouldn't you?

@MikeUniformMike what is cruel is to ‘look after’ them by artificially indicating them, genetically rearing them to produce a ridiculous amount of milk that makes them uncomfortable and taking away their calves so their milk can be used in your breakfast cereal.

There will be some that survive (probably those form organic farms who don’t have as much reliance on humans and medicines/ antibiotics given by humans) This is just nonsense. Organic farming is the method of farming not the animals themselves.

Interesting that nobody has any rebuttals to my comment that almost vegetables consumed in the UK are grown abroad anyway so land in the uk not being arable isn’t a big problem.

I would love to here any arguments against that comment.

And before anybody drones on about it being bad for the environment to import vegetables.

1. It is
2. It’s still a lot better for the environment than imported meat which the large majority of people in the UK eat.
3. Meat eaters eat imported vegetables all the time so it is not at all a vegan caused issue.

@derxa you have clearly done research into farming so I’m not going to try and teach you like a primary school child.

Please educate yourself in the future before you start spouting nonsense on threads.

Sorry, very ill informed arguments on both sides to be honest. I doubt most folks will have any idea what a wild ox would look like, and just how immense they grow. Hell, UK has issues with a lot of much smaller species that are now protected, so I can’t see wild cattle, pigs or even some sheep being allowed free roaming!
By the same token, so called guardians of the countryside enjoy vast subsidies in some instances, even to a point where blood sports are supported (pheasants are classified as stock which attracts subsidies. On release they lose this status, and can then be blasted to bits by anyone who can afford it).

Yes I agree and if you have a cooker that you can use as often as you like without worrying about fuel costs, the confidence to cook even simple meals, as well as having a copy of her book or access to the internet to read the recipes, that’s a good solution.
The recipes are designed with an eye to those in fuel poverty and are very simple and the books can be found in most libraries so yes they really are.

Cant stand those faux meat products. You just cang replicate he blood of an animal. Hmmm delicious

@Getitwright if you had read the thread you would see that @letsghostdance has explained there won’t be a situation with huge quantities livestock roaming around as this process will happen over decades and the amount of life stock will drop as demand for meat falls.

@strawberrieshortcake,
I don't eat breakfast cereal. I have porridge, made the proper way - with water.
I am not going to debate the ethics of dairy cow breeding, but you have to look after them. You can't just 'return' them to the wild.

@MikeUniformMike I see you have run out of arguments. Enjoy your porridge!

It’s hypothetical anyway, it’s not going to happen. I was merely pointing out that the domesticated livestock we are used to seeing is a far cry from how wild species would revert.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/08/save-planet-meat-dairy-livestock-food-free-range-steak?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Article on damage caused by meat/dairy farming including links to original paper if you want the detailed science.
FWIW I’m a meat eater but I don’t lie to myself about it and I am working on reducing.

You come across quite stupid for even asking this question tbh op.

I've been a vegetarian for more than 20 years. I eat meat substitutes because they are tasty. When you smoosh things like lentils or soya together with things like onions and other flavourings, they taste good. I regularly cook from scratch, but sometimes I want a convenience food.

For those of you saying that fake meat is more unhealthy than real meat as they have lots of additives. Firstly, most meat sausages and burgers are also full of additives. Secondly, there's a huge variation in meat alternatives. Not all of them have unhealthy additives. Many of them are high in healthy protein and fibre. Had a really nice one at lunch which is basically just flavoured tofu in sausage shape.

Linda's balls are pretty tasty

i am not going to debate the ethics of dairy cow breeding, but you have to look after them. You can't just 'return' them to the wild
No that would be madness. You’d have to stop breeding and let the species die out or cull. I don’t personally like the idea of culling though.

Lots of people enjoy the taste and texture of meat but don’t agree with the ethics or environmental damage. I don’t get what’s hard to understand really.

I haven't run out of arguments, but I can't be bothered to argue with you.
You are clueless.

@strawberrieshortcake

Importing vegatables does not make for good resource efficiency in the country that they originate from- speciality look at water use and deminishing water availability in many of these countries, alongside the complete lack of environmental regulations including pollution and biodiversity controls in the countries that imported veg originates from. This is versus sustainable calories produced in the UK from livestock grazed on grassland resource that cannot support the growing of crops, where we have a natural supply of rainwater for livestock. This same livestock grazing allows the little arable
Land we have to be sustainability farmed by incorporating organic manure to maintain soil structure and soil health which in turn means we can produce a range of plant based foods (potatoes, carrots etc).