To agree with JK Rowling?

[StraightenUpAndFryRight]

mobile.twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1207646162813100033

‘Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?
#IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill’

But in the gay cake case actually the decision was that you cannot compel speech. So that is the opposite of what you are saying.

Dutch you should read Miranda Yardly’s website - Mir has been very vocal publicly, Twitter, here and main stream media, about how he is a he and uses men’s toilets with zero problem and that TWAW and that the self ID bill has huge harmful implications for trans people as well as women. Mir publicly talks about how there’s a small faction of trans activists who are pushing young confused kids into this and gas lighting the fuck out of them and the rest of us. For his honesty and decency Mir has had death threats, been (threatened with being??) doxxed, and horrible abuse from the apg crowd who hate that Mir calls it as it is. But Miranda’s writing is great.

I mean, personally, I would not call Gregor 'women are cunts' Murray 'he; because it's not worth my time to get entangled with a misogynist, but I'm sure as heck not going to call him 'they/them', when he is clearly, in every cell of his body, male.

I can be forced to not call him 'he' - refrain from speech (I mean, not a slur, just the truth, but whatever), but the workplace has no business compelling me to refer to him as anything else.

A bible believing Christian can be asked not to talk about how all gays are damned at work (refrain) but cannot be required to affirm the value of same sex marriage (compulsion).

And outside of work ? People must be free to say things that are objectively factual, and describe reality, otherwise what kind of world is this ?

I was thinking about the implications of this judgement from a slightly different angle.

My understanding is that even when they have had surgery trans women do not have their prostate gland removed.
Prostate cancer is a biological male disease, a biological female cannot get it.
Should trans women be left out of prostate cancer screening because women don’t get prostate cancer?

Will prostate cancer have to be relabelled as a unisex disease and we all get screened?

Biological females present differently with heart attacks to biological males, the failure to recognise this was one of the triggers for everyday sexism IIRC. If a trans person is presenting with symptoms in line with their biological sex rather than gender identity will the doctor be fired if they misgender their symptoms?

There are times when biological sex has to trump gender identity.

The difference though with those things you've identified nun is that there are things that the majority of the public would consider unacceptable

That is true now, but let's go back to the 1950s - the majority then wouldn't have considered, say, homophobia to be offensive (when consenting gay relationships were still illegal). Let's go back to the 1970s, when 'The Black and White Minstrel Show' was prime time family TV entertainment - in other words, just because a view is held by the majority, it doesn't make it right.

MisaMarshmallow thanks for the tip, I certainly will.

Indeed, evensupposing. A quote from that case, itself a quote from another case:
“As enshrined in article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion is one of the foundations of a ‘democratic society’ within the meaning of the Convention. It is, in its religious dimension, one of the most vital elements that go to make up the identity of believers and their conception of life, but it is also a precious asset for atheists, agnostics, sceptics and the unconcerned. The pluralism indissociable from a democratic society, which has been dearly won over the centuries, depends on it.”

What do experts, biologists, think about whether sex is changeable? Are any going on record?

Nuns those are ‘beliefs’. Not talking about beliefs is not lying, it’s just not talking. The law doesn’t force anyone to say they do believe in gay marriage for example- we literally have an equalities minister who voted against gay marriage.

That an adult human male is a man is not a belief, it’s fact. Forcing people to say he is a woman would be compelling them to lie. Again, saying don’t voice nazis are great in work is not forcing people to lie, it’s just saying shut up, which is completely different.

Maya is not ok with GI. Judge ruled against her saying she is absolutist. But sex is either male or female and you cannot change that so it is absolute, is it not? Or have I missed something? Am prepared to be told I’m wrong!

You're not wrong but will be told that you are! Vehemently so, anywhere outside of Mumsnet. By people who refuse to accept that shouting at people until they shut up doesn't change reality or the minds of those people.

most people believe you can't change sex, yet this is being foisted upon us nonetheless.

And you really can't change sex.

I cannot decide that I want to opt out of the menopause. I cannot decide that smear tests and mammograms aren't for me. In the unlikely even that I become prime minister at the age of 55, nobody will be asking me whether the patter of tiny feet will be heard in Downing Street.

I can think of lots of suitably sweary Scots things to call Gregor, but will refrain out of respect for the Talk guidelines. And also because Gregor might try to get me sacked/call the police/any number of other plainly unreasonable things, because Gregor is not very nice.

I get that ‘Terf’ is an insult against women but why are there no special names for the men who harm Transwomen? Surely they’re the bigger threat? Many transwomen have lost their lives at the hands of men.

But many on the anti-TRA side don’t believe gender dysphoria is even a thing. They think it is a mental illness.That is not a constructive way to engage with genuine non TRA transgender/transsexual people

I have literally never seen a pro-woman feminist claim that gender dysphoria doesn't exist. It clearly exists. It's very distressing for the people who suffer from it. We don't know what causes it at the moment - it may be neurological (a disorder of perception), it may be environmental (rigid gender roles in society, homophobia in society, lack of respect for men who are feminine or women who are masculine), it may be cognitive (an way of thinking about the body that is not in line with the reality of the body), it may be to do with lack of support during puberty, it may be to do with lack of skills in terms of self-regulation...we do not know. It may well be a mental illness. The jury - despite political manouverings around where to place it as a diagnosis - is out.

But it exists, and it's distressing, and my kid is under psychiatric care because of it. No denying it exists here.

@puds11 You have precisely got the point. It was so simple and its being made so complicated by a minority trying to push forward a non-truth through aggressive means.

What will be the next fact to become stated belief? The lack of transparency about how these things happen is sinister

There are times when biological sex has to trump gender identity

One of Maya's points, I believe.

A point not worthy of respect in a democratic society. As the judge said, if a male has a GRC, he is, for ALL purposes, a woman. Not just a woman, a female.

If a female with a GRC comes into the ED with severe abdominal pains, why even check her for possible ectopic pregnancy or labour ? She's a man, men don't have ectopic pregnancies or labour ?

Sex denialism is both ridiculous and harmful.

Again, saying don’t voice nazis are great in work is not forcing people to lie, it’s just saying shut up, which is completely different.

Most equality and diversity training material does 'force' employees to verbally express views that would be contrary to racist/homophobic principles - at least, in large corporate organisations. Funnily enough, it happens in exactly the same arenas in which people here are complaining that they're 'forced' to 'lie' about their trans views ...

My DH saw the "opinion not worthy of respect in a democratic society" bit and immediately texted it me going, wtf is this? That's not a calm dry legal judgement, that's judge as activist.

Many work policies absolutely do explicitly force employees to lie. GitHub was recently in the news for this - just refraining from using pronouns at all is forbidden by their social media policy, as is using "they" as a neutral form of address for anyone who doesn't say they're a they.

Why the speech marks? This is forcing people to lie. It is. You think that's ok - because it's a courtesy. I don't. But the speech marks just make you look snippy.

My understanding is that racism and homophobia is based on hatred, of other races or of gay people, right? Which is wrong, as is transphobia.
However, saying trans women are men is the same as saying gay men choose to form intimate relationships with other men. Stating a fact. So comparing what is happening here to racism and homophobia simply doesn't stand up.

- in other words, just because a view is held by the majority, it doesn't make it right.

Unless you are privy to some ground breaking scientific news that hasn't yet reached the general public, it is still not possible to change sex, only one sex can give birth and the consequences of sex are still unavoidable. Sex continues to be relevant to global development which is the field in which Maya works.

Well they not forced with a gun to their head I suppose. But losing your job for refusing is fairly coercive.