To ask Labour voters

[SilverySurfer]

Since Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum appear to be continuing their grip on the Labour Party, whoever the new leader may be, do you see a time when the Party would split into two, leaving the above in one and the second being more centrist?

Initially I guess it would virtually guarantee Labour never winning an election but I wonder if you think it's likely the latter would get far more members, enough to once again become a viable opposition party?

I am a Tory but have always believed that Governments need good opposition parties, which has not been the case since Corbyn became leader.

I appreciate there's a fair number of Corbyn/Momentum fans but I would like to know what you think.

And it also helps, when you are in a political party, particularly when you are an MP in one, to get behind your leader, particularly when they have surprised you by gaining a swathe of popular support, and not to continue to backbite, fight amongst yourselves and brief against them.

This attitude almost broke up the Conservative party and it may yet break up Labour.

I want to bang my head on a wall....

There was a comment on page 1 of this thread that "Boris has already planned to remove the requirement for an election every five years"

And I've seen that repeated numerous time on social media.

He has not. He is considering repealing the fixed term parliament act which mean a parliament has to be five year unless 2/3 of the house agrees there should be one earlier.

It was similar to the election manifesto where apparently all support for ASD was to be removed after three years. No, there is going to be extra ring fenced support for three years after which it will return to current levels - so zero additional support over what is already there - not that all money to ASD was going to be stopped.

I think we need:

1. People to stop believing everything they read on social media
2. Learn to actually read and comprehend things for themselves

Juliette20

I don't want to vote for a party that doesn't contain people with any real convictions or ideology and just says populist stuff to get elected.
Neither do I. But if ideology becomes purism for its own sake the party will never get elected at all. Ideology isn't something you have for fun, like a hobby or taste in classic albums. It has to lead somewhere where the rubber hits the road and be implementable.

it's about convincing people that your views are the best ones

It is. But if the constituent parts of the group have such wildly different goals and values you are never going to be able to win over all of those people.

You have to convince the media, plutocrats, the markets and big business - the people who really run the country, not the politicians - that you are the best choice for them.
You do, and its a formidable task even when you're ruthlessly organised and singing from the hymn sheet. It's never going to happen when you're trying to please everyone.

I'm far more worried about the delusional policies of the current Government at the moment.

• That they can "Get Brexit Done". Whatever happens we'll be negotiating deals for the next five years at least, and the fall out will go on for far longer. By voting to leave, people are voting to never hear the end of it, probably in their lifetimes for many of the voters.

• That when they do Get Brexit Done, this will have a positive effect on the economy of the country and for the lives of its inhabitants.

• That they give a shit about the poor

• That they give a shit about any deprived communities in the UK and are going to help them.

Now that is seriously delusional. But apparently 13 million people are having a kind of collective hallucination about the Conservatives' vision for the future. I hope I'm wrong. I fear I'm not.

I don't think there will be a split. If anything TIG taught us is that there is no space for new parties under FPTP. Until we have a progressive voting system we will never have progressive parties or politics

Labour voter here. I think a split is quite likely if a Corbynista is elected leader. I know there are moderates now joining the party to stop that happening. I think if they fail it will be the end of the Labour Party as we know it.

Yep. If they fail I can’t see Labour getting out of the hole any time soon.

Getting into power is not about pragmatism, or jumping around from one policy to another according to what it says people want in the newspaper this week, it's about convincing people that your views are the best ones.

In an ideal world maybe, in the real world of many shades of grey there needs to be some pragmatism and give and take.

It isn't dictated on what is in the newspaper one week to the next either, labour have had shots across the bow since Brown, they chose to ignore them and think Milliband lost because he wasn't left wing enough.

It's been a common critiism that some ardent Corbyn supporters are failing to see, it hasn't all been smeers or the fault of right wing media when the entriests started telling everyone else to fuck off to the tories.

To do that, and where Corbyn went wrong, is to think that people will just vote for that because it's a good thing, because it's the right, good and kind thing to do.

I can see you are still trying to use this paternalistic/moral slant as to why others are still wrong, you don't want to hear any reasons why.

And being realistic, in this country it isn't enough to convince the general public. You have to convince the media, plutocrats, the markets and big business - the people who really run the country, not the politicians - that you are the best choice for them.

The media machine has always been the way it is, with the advent of social media it is countered somewhat.

the markets and big business

Well yeah, of course you do, even more so as we a globalised economy, if there are no big business then there is no tax take or jobs, I've had some flippant responses on here that if they fuck off then good, another home grown company will appear.

That isn't convincing anyone, it's thinking there is a simple solution to the many grey areas that Labour have been ignoring for the past decade.

That was to RoyalCorgi.

I find it depressing. Cons without any threat of opposition is concerning.

If you can’t get the centre of left you won’t get in power. If your policies are too far left your principles won’t help anyone at all.

Justanotherlurker The article you linked to was interesting but not surprising. I reckon that's the least of it and could see many other companies doing the same if Labour as it is at the moment got close to winning an election. I'm also pretty sure all the rich people would move themselves and/or their wealth offshore too, like they did when the top rate of tax topped 90% in the 70s.

thepeopleversuswork An interesting breakdown and I agree about Momentum. I think whoever tries to extract them from Labour will have a monumental task on their hands.

Juliette20 Doesn't the result of the election give the message loud and clear that people don't want those policies? Do you think you should stick with the same policies regardless and hope you can convince people to change their mind? To be honest You have to convince them that it is in their interest to vote for you. You have to sell your policies telling them what's in it for them. sounds a bit like 'We know better than you what's good for you.' It sounds a bit nanny state which would personally send me 100% off in the other direction.

Reanimated So there's an interesting selection of new Tory MPs then - a piece from the Guardian all negative.

Have you read anything for balance? I was reading about 10 new Tory MP's to watch all from the North, a teacher, an NHS worker, a train guard, several quite young, several women.

There are people who think labour is still not socialist enough under JC so they could replace the Centrists. I think it would be a good idea.

I think Labour has been a fantastic opposition since Corbyn took the helm. Mock him all you want but his leadership means the Tories have at least begun paying lip service to ending austerity and reinstating police numbers and retaining nurses (even if they will no doubt renege on this stating there is no money in the pot despite 9 years of Tory economic policy ). We could have got a centrist leader but there is no guarantee they would have done any better in the election nor been less vilified by the media.

Corbyn has said he will resign but is staying until Labour are able to decide on his replacement. I think this was the right thing to do.

Doesn't the result of the election give the message loud and clear that people don't want those policies? Do you think you should stick with the same policies regardless and hope you can convince people to change their mind?

Have it your way, let's not have any policies and just do what the general public want. Our only policy is that we always let the general public decide on any important issues by weekly internet voting, with a yes or no answer. True democracy. Can't see any problems there at all.

Good post, Seawitchly, I couldn't agree more.

Not wanting “those policies” doesn’t mean not wanting any policies at all.

I would have voted Labour to keep the Tories out but I didn’t have to as mine is a Labour safe seat. However, I too think that the manifesto was over the top, unrealistic, simplistic, and there were some policies in there which I really disliked, that sought to remove choice and kind of give the state too much power of intervention and re-distribution IMO. I had a gut reaction against this and I know I am not the only one.

But this doesn’t mean that I don’t want policies, and socially minded inclusive ones at that.

I don’t hate Corbyn but I think he has been very inward looking. I am glad he has been talking about the most vulnerable all these years because the situation in this country for many is shocking, and we are not civilised if everyone isn’t afforded a dignified life in which they have a place to live, enough food, enough money to pay their bills.

What I am angriest about is probably the fact that if Corbyn hadn’t been so lukewarm about the EU, remain might very possibly have won the referendum.

And I think that after the 2017 election he should have stood down.

The other poster disagreed with the idea of trying to convince people that certain policies are a good idea as a silly nanny state thing to do. The other alternative is continually asking people what they want and not taking any responsibility as to whether what they want is a good idea.

Sorry I didn’t see that, but I agree that Labour were/are out of touch with the extent to which people in this country won’t vote for some of their policies. So at what point will they move slightly more to the centre to try to get back into power?

What I am angriest about is probably the fact that if Corbyn hadn’t been so lukewarm about the EU, remain might very possibly have won the referendum

Oh I love how people try to make the referendum result Corbyn's fault. It was a terrible vote, put together by a complacent PM, to appease an appalling party, and led a complacent remain campaign. Why should Corbyn have helped Cameron out of the hole he dug for himself?

Why should Corbyn have helped Cameron out of the hole he dug for himself?

He wouldn’t have been helping Cameron, he would have been helping all of us (I am a remainer, I appreciate that leavers won’t see things this way).

I know that the real responsibility lies with Cameron and the Tories, but the opposition could have helped us avoid the last three years of turmoil, and now having to leave the EU, which has and is going to make us a lot poorer.

I think a split would be a good thing...we need a centre left and a far left. After all the far right have their Ukip and Brexit party. Bring it on i say. If you compare the far left with people like "Farage" i think you can see the difference in ideology.

Eventually things will swing round...to the centre i hope.

The best thing to do is to have a leader who can handle both sides with a clear position they all get behind

I think it's crazy how the British public has embraced austerity...the country was bankrupt ( as a result of the city and global recessiin) and yet we have wholeheartedly embraced taking from ordinary people especially vulnerable people like the disabled as " they dont work hard enough." People in this country love the class system...."we couldn't possible ask the rich to pay more tax as they would leave the country and after all they work so hard so they deserve it." is the general philosophy.
Things wont change as the public love the status quo and the class system...it makes them feel safe......mass delusion if you will. They feel that the rich will look after them and if they only work hard enough they will be rich too....they won't.
But people want this...we are not like the wonderful French who strove for equality.
We are a small island and we have voted to make ourselves smaller.

Recession.

I also feel like in economic hardship people swing more to the right...like in the 2nd ww.