To ask Labour voters

[SilverySurfer]

Since Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum appear to be continuing their grip on the Labour Party, whoever the new leader may be, do you see a time when the Party would split into two, leaving the above in one and the second being more centrist?

Initially I guess it would virtually guarantee Labour never winning an election but I wonder if you think it's likely the latter would get far more members, enough to once again become a viable opposition party?

I am a Tory but have always believed that Governments need good opposition parties, which has not been the case since Corbyn became leader.

I appreciate there's a fair number of Corbyn/Momentum fans but I would like to know what you think.

FFS. I'm as far left as they come but, being out of my teens, I recognise that there are other legitimate viewpoints.

All the people getting a cheap thrill from sticking the boot into the OP are fucking embarrassing, and a big part of what's wrong with left-wing politics at the moment.

OP, to answer your question, I read the other day (and agree) that labour has, from one perspective, split into three separate parties (or at least, has three distinct supporter bases):

-the traditional working-class trade union left
-metropolitan liberal types
-students and that

The problem I see with corbyn (apart from the fact that he lacks the skillset to lead a major political party), and labour more generally at the moment, is that they don't particularly seem to represent any of them. If there is to be a split, I'm not sure I see where the fault lines are.

I don't think the party should move more centrally or split to have a central side - let the centrists either stay, or if they go too far to the right, join the Lib Dems instead.

I believe this country desperately needs to shift the Overton window back to the left just to reach the centre.
After 9 years of austerity, and many more years before that of Conservative destruction of public services, and no way near enough done by the centrist Labour party in the middle to compensate, we urgently need social democracy to bring things back to decency.

If you think about anything that is good in society, that makes life better, it'll be shared between the people: state education, public libraries, public swimming pools, national utilities, public museums, free parks and open spaces, public toilets, once upon a time decently subsidised public transport, social housing, the NHS. All of these things are there to make society a better place to live in. And all of these things have been under threat, or have been privatised or closed by the Conservatives. We've lost hundreds of libraries, of youth centres, of Surestart centres, of swimming pools, of public toilets - and we've lost access to flexible, subsidised further and higher education.

It isn't radically left wing or communist to want to reinstate some of those things. Because yes, we can all live independently and not share resources, but if we do share them better then the richest people also do benefit - from living in a happy, healthy and cooperative society where there aren't people living on the streets, and where ordinary people have enough money to be able to spend and keep the small businesses afloat around them.

The Labour Party was born to help everyone in society, and to protect the poorest and most vulnerable. The fact that so, so many people are struggling right now shows that society has been atomised too much by the right, and so we on the left should not be talked into moving to centrist 'not quite as bad as the Conservatives' positions. There are very clear moral values going on here, and if it didn't work this time, then another 5 years and Brexit happening is sure to bring more people to vote Labour next time.

There is that 'dehumanising' thing that goes on with the far left. The 'you're a Tory therefore no rules apply' thing. Shout "fuck off cunt", "Hope you die", "murderer!" but it's fine as Tories aren't people.

Didn't go well for Chuka, but if the alternative is to stick with Labour knowing you'll never be in government what have you lost?

We can see the lessons. Labour after 1979 doubled down on their left wing agenda with Foot. They lost. Kinnock Snr was chosen to replace Foot. He was of the left but he wasn’t stupid. He knew the party had been infiltrated and their politics were toxic and made the party unelectable. He famously confronted them and threw them out.

One of the bravest and most inspired acts of political leadership.

To the poster, as a Tory you should know that your own party lurched to the right under Hague, Duncan Smith and the Howard. It took three changes before they returned to the centre. Ironically it’s Theresa May who confronted the party and it’s nasty tendency.

Until and unless labour get a brave leader, probably of the left, willing to bring them back to sanity they may double down again and again.

Thank you thedancingbear I appreciate it.

Totally agree Mysterian to me it shows a complete lack of imagination and critical thought to not understand that people can have different opinions and to be honest I never heard such vile name calling from the Tories when Labour got elected. I think it has got worse since the Brexit Referendum as some Remainers have got more and more wound up since then and it seems some Labour supporters have picked up the baton. I can tell you that being called as thick as pig shit is not pleasant but fortunately I'm a great believer in sticks and stones.

I've just seen on the news that Bernie Eccleston's daughter has been robbed of £50m of jewellery. Even as a Tory I think that is obscene and that's without the houses, cars, holidays. I hope she learns something from it.

I'm not a classic labour voter - I've swung between almost every party other than the extreme ones. I am exactly the type of voter you need to win over to win. I wanted a 2nd referendum and I actually found JC ok, but the policies were untenable for me. My background is change management and what was proposed in the manifesto was literally impossible in the timescales involved. Had he promised reform of UC, more NHS money, support for cleaning up the environment and a 2nd referendum and kept it at that I'd have probably gone for it.

Renationalising rail and broadband, 4 day working week etc. Just didn't work for me. And neither did business tax increases without knowing the outcome to brexit (which they werer claiming not to know because you know - 2nd referendum), because low business tax will be essential to making brexit a bit less of a shit show!

So there's an interesting selection of new Tory MPs then...

Op I don't think it will work at all.

Chukka etc spilt and fell into irrelevant oblivion.

Labour et all need to redefine itself totally and re write the whole book if they want to stay relevant.

What they stood for simply doesn't match what people want.

Duffle unfortunately that has all been made irrelevant after Blairs disaster immigration policy toward Eastern Europe.

The problem is also that Labour isn't listening - they think their manifesto was universally well received and are blaming Brexit and Corbyn leadership. Their manifesto was not well accepted and I pinched my nose, like many others, to vote for them as I didn't want another 5 years of Tory squeeze of the poorest and most vulnerable people in this country. Their re-nationalisation program of everything was not welcomed by many people. Many of their policies I agree with, but not that. 4 days week, no no. Broadband - well that's a yes from me as it does exist in many other countries and they have seen an increase in productivity, especially in remote areas which is what we need in the UK.

The party will eventually regroup, but it will take time, some heads will fall. They will need to listen to others rather than Momentum. I, like others, am not a committed labour voter. But I will never, ever vote Tory. Ever.

Labour need to move away from being obsessed with ideology and towards marketing their party for a wider audience.

The current situation is very like when Michael Foot etc were in charge. And Thatcher 🤮 her kept getting elected time and time again.

I will always vote Labour regardless of the leader. And whilst Blair gets it in the neck, he had 3 landslides. And during his time in power did things like Sure Start, free nursery places and lots and lots of other stuff to help families which people seem to forget about. Including money to invest when a child was born, and extra money when you had a baby. People understandably focus on Iraq, but l worked in education when he was in power and work in it now. The differences are unreal. He vowed to eradicate child poverty

He even got the vile right wing press to back him, and they did. And yes, it is awful that he did this, and indeed had to do it, but all of this helped him win.

I remember the hope and optimism during that time. It was a great time, after years of Thatcher. Hopefully we can get there again!

Labour needs to realise that the majority of people in the country or sort of left or right of centre. And that’s what they need to aim for. It’s simple market forces. But they become obsessed with ideaology and don’t get elected.

ReanimatedSGB

It said at the bottom the Guardian’s independent, measured, authoritative reporting has never been so vital - I laughed out loud and see it is still begging for money. At least the Telegraph knows what it is.

Mrscog and QueenBlueberries What would it take for you to vote Labour? Floating voters are important and they should be listening to voters like you.

Am afraid that when they get someone like Blair they will probably gain votes etc.....which is not good imo.

I will vote labour again if they are the party that has the best chance to beat the local Tory candidate.

Why is it not good? You can’t have everything? You either get a leader who doesn’t appeal to the electorate, or one who works to attract them. And it’s the latter that Labour have to do.

Any Labour government is better than none. Even if it’s a centre left one .

I am very left wing in my views, but l know that will never be accepted by the electorate. So compromise had to be in thete

I don’t think the current Labour Party is a step away from communism or is extreme left wing.

I think the party needs to take time to find the right leader - even if that means electing one for now and then working up to someone else a bit later.

The leader makes all the difference. I think JC was unfairly portrayed in the press - he was in short against violence and he believed that you had to have a dialogue with both/all sides. Unfortunately that meant unpalatable company and that was used to smear him.

The media had a campaign against him running since 2017, because the Tories knew he was a genuine threat after eroding Theresa May’s majority. That coupled with his fail on Brexit and fail to explain and apologise for his positions (not that he’d have had a fair hearing in the press anyway).

We need a decent opposition, I hear you OP. Boris Johnson is going to do some dangerous things and he needs calling out.

he believed that you had to have a dialogue with both/all sides.

Except he only ever talked to one side.

He didn’t even bloody talk to Luciana Berger when she was being bullied out of his party.

At this point the game isn't worth the candle and Labour members shouldn't stay in a country which is hostile to their values and is about to become unsalvageable

Sadly I agree with this. I don't feel like this is home anymore. It's a horrible feeling. I remain a member of the party in order to vote for a strong leader like Angela Rayner but I am also considering Scotland. My children deserve a decent NHS (as do all children).

On the question posed I think labour will remain a single party, will vote for another left wing (but potentially more palatable to more people) leader. I don't think it will make much difference in the short term and I worry that it will be too late in 5 ( or more) years. There is talk of him ending the requirement to have an election every 5 years so no guarantees.

I'll wait to see who is elected as the new leader and what kind of direction they take the party in. If it's someone like Rebecca Long Bailey, who seems more likely to continue with Corbynesque, further left policies, than I think the party really needs to split. However, if the next leader is more centrist, I'd be happier, but would Momentum? Maybe a split is becoming more inevitable, but I feel that only a centrist-left leaning party, which understands that we need business and must support business, but also acknowledges that we need workers to be included, valued and well rewarded, can compete nowadays.
I'd like to see Keir Starmer as leader. I think he is very statesmanlike.

@SilverySurfer just a realistic manifesto with a level of honesty about personal taxation rising - countries with better services have higher taxes for almost everyone - Denmark for instance is 38% except for the very low paid. Tax on a new car is 105% and there is 25% VAT on most things. That is the price to be paid for a welfare state that the left desire. I’m willing to vote for it but it must be a national conversation and one which is proposed honestly.

All the ‘only people earning 80k plus will pay a teeny bit more’ didn’t wash with me, it’s not realistic, we’re already over reliant on high earners for tax purposes.

I think where I fall down is on business, I don’t really believe in taxing business at all, let it thrive, encourage investment, don’t tax profits but make the minimum wage much higher (hopefully cutting back on in work benefits) and then just tax personal income.

To be honest the approach to business is what I suspect Boris might try to make Brexit ‘work’.

Nice - more gin than roses?

This assumes that people’s politics remain the same as they get older, have kids and accrue more personal wealth. We know that’s not true.

My politics have remained essentially the same, there's more nuance now I'm older, but owning a house and having children haven't made me right wing. I remember all too well the people where I grew up who had very, very little. My family isn't anywhere near wealthy, we're both earning well below average salary, but we have more than a lot of people.