To ask Labour voters

[SilverySurfer]

Since Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum appear to be continuing their grip on the Labour Party, whoever the new leader may be, do you see a time when the Party would split into two, leaving the above in one and the second being more centrist?

Initially I guess it would virtually guarantee Labour never winning an election but I wonder if you think it's likely the latter would get far more members, enough to once again become a viable opposition party?

I am a Tory but have always believed that Governments need good opposition parties, which has not been the case since Corbyn became leader.

I appreciate there's a fair number of Corbyn/Momentum fans but I would like to know what you think.

You are the reason why many people want to split roses. To get away from the extreme violent thugs that shout "fuck off" at people who disagree with their opinion.

Any Labour government is better than none. Even if it’s a centre left one.

I agree with this but when I said it to my staunchly Labour relative, she said “so we can’t hope for anything better than inequality and relentless capitalism and neoliberalism”.

She also thinks the fact that I don’t like Momentum means I have swallowed propaganda and challenged me by asking if I had ever met a Momentum member.

So if I am having these kinds of arguments, can you imagine what kind of arguments are going on within the party?

I don’t hold out much hope to be honest.

They should split so that the centre has its voice back. Corbyn and co can carry on with their rallies .

Self-congratulatory rallies, preaching to the already converted minority. Now look what we’ve got, an ARMY of Tory MPs all ready to back our very right wing government .

You should ask party members as most of the ten million Labour voters are not party members or concerned with the inner workings of the party.

AFAIC, I'm not concerned that Labour is dominated by people whose ideas come from socialism as well as capitalism, and I don't see them as "far left". Unfettered capitalism will eat itself, even right-wing economists agree with that.

Juliette20 would they be the same economists who didnt predict the banking crash?

Look, Momentum is the result of the last purge when Derek Hatton et al were moved on and expelled. they didnt disappear they just regrouped and got smarter and could see that by playing the long game they could take over the Labour party. it was interesting that this morning on BBC an MP said the worst thing he did personally was resign from the cabinet when Corbyn won. He knows now he should have stayed and fought it. Momentum are dangerous for democracy. they are an unelected faction of city dwellers - they act like dictators - we know best. The still refuse to accept that they did not win the argument on their policies. people arent stupid. they worked out that free everything for everyone is unachievable. We desperately need a coherent and intelligent opposition that can put counter views. Labour have lost 4 General elections and if they dont elect someone centrist and boot out momentum then they are going to lose another 4. Someone needs to stand as potential party leader on a ticket of banning Momentum. a purge sooner rather than later has to happen to stop the rot.

I agree mummymeiser but the current membership won't back a leader who is actually electable.

It's only when the membership demographic becomes more representative of real people that there will be enough votes to back a sensible leader.

I have shed actual tears about this sorry state of affairs. A couple more years and it'll be 50 years since anyone but Tony Blair won a general election for us. But there's no appetite to learn lessons from that.

Everyone please join now just to vote in a sensible leader!

Autocracy111 I agree - I would love to be a fly on the wall at Labour headquarters.

Juliette20 I think a lot of people consider Momentum to be far left, communist even - do you disagree?

He's resigned already. Stop gloating.

I would love to be a fly on the wall at Labour headquarters.

I wouldn’t, it would just make me sad.

On the one hand we have Boris and his triumphant army, and on the other we have Emily Thornberry swearing in her interview about taking Caroline Flint to court.

And Boris might have won but he is still a liar intent on damaging the country (further) to further his own political ambition. No majority will change that fact.

I think a lot of people consider Momentum to be far left, communist even - do you disagree?

I don't think any Labour policies in the manifesto were far left. I have no personal experience of Momentum and I'm not a party member.

would they be the same economists who didn't predict the banking crash?

Not necessarily. Why would they be the same economists? The Conservatives certainly didn't predict the banking crash, they were arguing for even lighter regulation!

The "gang of four" split Labour decades ago for exactly the same reasons, i.e. against the hard left, to form the social democrats. Didn't end well for them as they ended up merging with the liberals.

At the end of the day, Labour is basically hard left. That makes it unelectable. The only power they've had in the last 50 years was when Blair pretended Labour was centralist, but it was just a sticking plaster over a sore, as he had to appoint the hapless John Prescott as deputy leader to apease the unions, and Brown was far more left than Blair, hence the succession of catastrophic financial mistakes he made.

I don't think any Labour policies in the manifesto were far left.

Part nationalisation of any company with over 250 employees wouldn't even gain traction in Nordic countries, so yeah that was far left.

The renationalistion of some industries isn't necessarily far left, although broadband was just carrot for the easily led, but pretending they could offer below market value was very far left 'seize the means of production stuff'.

Brown was far more left than Blair, hence the succession of catastrophic financial mistakes he made

If you say it enough times it becomes true, right?

I'm not even being sarcastic. Anyone who wants a non-Tory government at any stage in the future needs to work out by what miracle we can undo these extremely potent lies about Labour and the economy.

It's practically a watertight guaranteed vote loser.

Part nationalisation of any company with over 250 employees wouldn't even gain traction in Nordic countries, so yeah that was far left

If you think that is far left, it only goes to show how far politics has gone to the right. Even Conservatives used to believe in nationalised industries in the 20th century.

If you think that is far left, it only goes to show how far politics has gone to the right

If you don't see that as being pretty far left, it shows you live in some weird echo chamber.

Like I say no globalised country would implement that.

Even Conservatives used to believe in nationalised industries in the 20th century.

You will see I said nationalisation wasn't the issue, threatening to pay below market value was.

Also implementing the 4 day week was a nice idea, saying that companies would still keep the wages the same was some blinkered left leaning pie in sky ideal.

I mean they have a shadow chancellor who was an out and out proud marxist, unless you going to try and pretend Marxist isn't far left.

Anyone who wants a non-Tory government at any stage in the future needs to work out by what miracle we can undo these extremely potent lies about Labour and the economy.

It's not a lie that Brown sold off huge amounts of the country's gold reserves at historically low levels.

It's not a lie that tax evasion/avoidance exploded under Brown's years as Chancellor.

It's not a lie that generations to come will have to pay for ruinous PFI deals signed by Brown for schools and hospitals with atriums and other frivolities.

It's not a lie that Brown screwed up his introduction of tax credits.

It's not a lie that Brown knackered untold numbers of pension schemes because of his tax raids on pensions/dividends.

Anyone who wants a non-Tory government at any stage in the future needs to work out by what miracle we can undo these extremely potent lies about Labour and the economy.

It doesn't help when so far there fully costed manifesto has been anything but and collapses when it comes under even a little scrutiny.

The IFS ripped into both manifestos, but labour didn't even include most of the extra pledges or costings in them.

Such as WASPI, realising to keep free broadband running was a lot more expensive than what they where suggesting, etc etc.

Can someone explain to me why a centrist party is more appealing? As a labour supporter, I would feel out of touch if they moved away from the left-wing side of things.

The voters labour lost were socially conservative. They could not identify with the urban progressive views that were presented to them. They also viewed Corbyn as being unpatriotic if not a downright traitor for openly consorting with terrorists and enemies of the country. Yes other political leaders met with Sinn Fein but only after they agreed to peace talks and a cease fire.

They also thought the fiscal pledges were unaffordable and irresponsible.

As a labour supporter, I would feel out of touch if they moved away from the left-wing side of things.

This spiral or purity is showing it is increasingly becoming less of a broadchurch.

To get into power you also need to be pragmatic, we are a globalised world with all the issues of a globalised world, it means real world gets in the way when you start threataning to nationalise industries at below market value:
www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/24/power-firms-move-ownership-offshore-to-protect-against-labour-renationalisation

To actually get into power you need to sway the moderate center as there is not enough votes on the left or right to win an election.

To actually get into power you need to sway the moderate center as there is not enough votes on the left or right to win an election.

Modern politicians seem to have forgotten that it was "Mondeo Man" who swings elections, i.e. floating/centralist voters. It's about time they realised this!

darkriver19886 do you really need to ask this question after everything that's happened? The British electorate has consistently rejected far left manifestos.

Juliette its delusional to think that any government in a developed country could successfully implement the policies that Corbyn/McDonnell proposed.

I think a lot of the responses on this thread (along with a lot of the gratuitous name-calling) essentially answer the OP's question). Yes I do think Labour will have to split: it's disappearing under a mountain of its own contradictions. It is trying to appeal to several groups of people, among whom there almost no shared values:

• old fashioned working class Labour voters in former industrialised regions (the vast majority of whom want Brexit and who loathed Corbyn)
• hard left zealots who want Venezuala-style economic policies, ie, assuming that the best way to fix any given problem is for the government to take it over
• metropolitan liberals who want to Remain and are primarily concerned with matters like climate change
• former Blairites who want social democracy but are essentially happy with the level of private sector involvement in the economy
• students who have some overlap with the leftists but who are driven by charisma politics

The only thing in my view which unites these groups is the NHS, which is motherhood and apple pie, but even that unbelievably low-hanging fruit wasn't enough to help Corbyn maintain support. On the other issues the party is tying itself up in knots trying to resolve these contradictions.

There are some promising individuals in the new generation of Labour leadership but I just don't see these contradictions being resolved without a bloodbath which would see at least one of these groups being pushed out.

My personal preference, which I realise isn't shared by many on here, would be for Momentum to be forced out and for the party to track towards a more realistic, centrist approach. I am profoundly troubled by Momentum's arrogance and authoritarianism. I think widespread disgust at the Momentum-manufactured hounding of non Labour voters for being heartless bastards who for example want all disabled people to die (plentiful on this thread) is one of the single most important reasons why Labour lost this election.

Whatever your view, its hard to see it being reconciled in the present Labour party.

I don't want to vote for a party that doesn't contain people with any real convictions or ideology and just says populist stuff to get elected. Because we already have one of those called the Conservative Party as run by Boris Johnson.

Getting into power is not about pragmatism, or jumping around from one policy to another according to what it says people want in the newspaper this week, it's about convincing people that your views are the best ones.

To do that, and where Corbyn went wrong, is to think that people will just vote for that because it's a good thing, because it's the right, good and kind thing to do. You have to convince them that it is in their interest to vote for you. You have to sell your policies telling them what's in it for them.

And being realistic, in this country it isn't enough to convince the general public. You have to convince the media, plutocrats, the markets and big business - the people who really run the country, not the politicians - that you are the best choice for them.