AIBU that an independent Scotland ill have to have a hard border to ensure the rest of the UK keeps control of its borders when Scotland joins theEU

[monstiebags]

Whilst I totally agree that Scotland has the right to become independent, it seems to me that they want to push though a vote without telling the people how they expect to fund themselves, what currency they will use and what trading agreement they expect to have with the UK. I really think that these things should be made clear to the rest of the UK before they are allowed their rightful vote - A weak Scotland using our currency could drag us all down with them and a soft border would encourage the continued uncontrolled migration to England via Scotland. AIBU

I have spent an awful lot of time on Hadrian's Wall (although not quite at our border nowadays but not far away in parts). I don't think we will be strengthening its ramparts any time soon. Also we have had a Scottish referendum and the people voted to stay in the UK. We cannot keep having referenda just because people don't like the results of them. Scotland had its chance and made its choice.

Scotland has 5.4 million people and London has about 8.9 million.

Some of Scotland do want a Tory government. My constituency is a Tory one. Also both sides would patrol a border, that's what they usually do. I don't think we will get another vote, I don't think I want one.

It has been said that Scotland would still use the pound as its not just Englands money Scotland can cope on its own very well thank you I think when it happens which it will as no one in Scotland voted for tory it'll be Boris coming running to us to borrow money

I agree that Scotland should have independence but until they can fund themelves it won't happen. Which is the way it should be. To expect England to do so is like an 18 year old going to their parent and saying "I'm moving out. I don't know what I am going to do for work but it doesn't matter any way because you are going to buy me a house and pay all of my bills and expenses. Oh and I am also taking your credit cards with me,".

@Overtime2019

You mean Boris will be coming to ask for the money he lent you back? :P

Scotland will not go independent NOR join the EU. For Scotland to join the EU it would have to go through a fully legal process, ie the governing body of that country (UK parliament) would have to ratify a separation, which it will not do. Any unsanctioned referendum will never be recognized by the EU and Spain has already said it will veto such a move as that would, if effect, legalize the Catalan independence vote. The rest of the UK would be perfectly within it's rights to refuse Scotland use of the currency post any split as No country would allow another to raise money (ie borrow on the open markets) backed by it's currency. Scotland would have to form it's own central bank and issue it's own currency BEFORE it can take loans..and the EU is not going to allow it to use the Euro either. Obviously there would be a transition period, but there will be a hard stop on when Scotland stops using the pound, any promises Sturgeon makes to the contrary is just smoke and mirrors.

The reality is they will not leave unless Westminster allows it...and that is not anytime soon. Little miss Kranky can bang on about it as much as she likes, it's not going to happen.

I'm English, and personally would want Scotland to stay. Given the massive win for the SNP I think the Scottish people should be given a second referendum, with it written into law that if remain won it couldn't be repeated for 20? years.

There was so much uncertainty at the last vote, and many people may have voted remain due to fear of the unknown. Given that the SNP have not stopped working towards independence during the last 5 years, they have had all that time to get answers to all these questions and come up with a solid plan, I can't imagine they haven't learned from the first time round, or from Brexit.

Another thread full of Scotland bashing.

I ask a very genuine question of those in England:

If Scotland is such an economic disaster, what is your problem with them leaving, surely it'd do you (and Boris) a favour?

Yes I believe in independence. I have a lot of admiration for England. I think it's clear though we're now on different paths. And that's fine. I will always want England, Wales and NI to succeed, but so too should Scotland. That will only occur when we realise our own future. We don't believe in Brexit (England does, and that's their right) but democracy means our verdict should be understood too.

@m0vinf0rward

'Little miss Kranky'

Grow up. Fair enough debate the point, but that sort of language reflects far more on you (and defeats your point) than anyone else.

@madeyemoodysmum who knows what the pound will do after Brexit? Denmark, Sweden and Finland are also expensive but with good quality of life, strong welfare states, good childcare, education and healthcare. These are values and outcomes I think generally Scottish people want (not all of course, but those I speak to and based on the more centre left and left wing voting trends) and would cope with a higher cost of living to have a good place to live with good support and safety nets.

All countries have their problems but being able to live in a country where the government broadly reflects the values of the people is in my opinion and in the opinion of at least around half of Scotland something worth having.

@Littlemeadow123 but how can we fund ourselves when our money goes to Westminster? It’s more like a situation where a financially controlling partner is taking all the family money then splitting it amongst the family- if the controlled partner wants to leave, the other partner needs to stop taking their money in the first place.

Scotland very much wants to fund itself, we have no interest in handouts from England once we’re independent. These aren’t simple issues that will be resolved on mumsnet but plenty of small countries fund themselves. It’s something that would need to be resolved in the divorce process.

“ plenty of small countries fund themselves.”

I agree with you but I would just say this.

Scotland isn’t a small country. Whether measured by population or GDP it is a medium sized country. With first world infrastructure and developed economy. No country has ever been in a better position to choose independence and I really wish we would stop referring to Scotland as small.

More people live in London than live in Scotland - it doesn't have its own parliament.

Scotland has 5.4 million people and London has about 8.9 million.

Increasing the support for another Indyref right there with those well informed comments.

The numbers don't matter, and therein lies the cause of such resentment from the 'region' formerly known as Scotland.

The fact is that Scotland is a country in it's own right and (newsflash), London (despite being the centre of the world quite simply isn't.

It's not rocket science.

@StreetwiseHercules I hadn’t really thought about it but on looking up a paper there’s no universal definition of small country but by most standards you’re right Scotland is more of a medium size.

“ @StreetwiseHercules I hadn’t really thought about it but on looking up a paper there’s no universal definition of small country but by most standards you’re right Scotland is more of a medium size.”

Cheers. On land size alone it is about the size of Austria and Austria obviously has no territorial waters. When people think of Austria they don’t immediately think “small country”.

In terms of population, it sits right in the middle of the global league table. For GDP Scotland sits about 50th of almost 200 countries.

Surprised it took until page 4 to get a ‘kranky’ comment @m0vinf0rward are you always such a stereotypical twat?

Honestly half the comments on this thread are what motivates nationalists. The utter disdain so many have for the Scottish people just reiterates how far apart we are.

Honestly half the comments on this thread are what motivates nationalists. The utter disdain so many have for the Scottish people just reiterates how far apart we are.

It motivates non nationalists too. It's attitudes like this in the Brexit debate which made an SNP voter of my dh even though he's always been a Tory voter and pretty much a poster boy for Unionism (half Scottish/half NIrish but from wealthy Tory and DUP voting families). I'm not convinced we have a shared purpose or interests any longer which brings the Union into question.

I get why Scotland wants to be independent. I just think it's really high risk given the near certainty that Spain will veto any attempt to join the EU so it will be a country of 5 million people, with hard borders everywhere. I would be tempted to wait to see what Brexit looks like as I reckon it could end up being pretty soft and better in that deal than totally out of the EU, which is the alternative.

Something to bear in mind when it comes to the SNP is that they're the only major political party which doesn't allow its members to publicly criticise their leader or disagree with any policies, on pain of automatic expulsion.

It's 'worked' for Brexit. Why should Scots be any different?

Oh, yes, because they aren't English. So it's completely different.

“ Something to bear in mind when it comes to the SNP is that they're the only major political party which doesn't allow its members to publicly criticise their leader or disagree with any policies, on pain of automatic expulsion.”

I must have missed Angus McNeil being expelled for his vocal and sustained criticism of the party leadership.

@mitziK exactly

“
It's 'worked' for Brexit. Why should Scots be any different?

Oh, yes, because they aren't English. So it's completely different.”

There’s one thing that you guys just don’t seem to get about the nationalist movement in Scotland. It’s not about Scots. It’s about the people of Scotland, those of all nationalities, including English people who live and work here.

This kind of broad, inclusive ambition for a better nation just does not compute for British Nationalists.

But if the Scots choose independence, they won't be in the UK any more, will they?

Surely, if Scotland becomes independent, the UK will no longer exist? It is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Great Britain consists of Scotland, Wales and England. Therefore the union of Wales, Northern Ireland and England will need to rename itself.

Im scottish living in England. Its certainly up to scottish residents to decide how they want to govern themselves but i do think the EU situation needs to be very clear for the next vote. So what post EU UK looks like and what the conditions of EU membership are and will scotland meet them.