Let's face reality both options are crap - election

[ChristmasSweet]

Both Johnson or Corbyn are shit options. Both have a lot of downsides. I've yet to find a positive side to either of them. Both lie, both are childish, both will ruin the country in their own unique ways.

Yet there's really no point in voting for any of the others. Snp will never get into power, they are just a wasted vote, as are Plaid cymru, dup etc as they only serve one country. Lib dems are a joke and have been for years.

Yes there is the lovely idea of 'but if we all vote for the lib dems/whoever they could win'. Not really going to happen at this late stage is it? A rainbow coalition is about the most likely scenario, but that didn't exactly work well between the tories and lib dems did it? I can't see Corbyn and sturgeon getting along once she realises he's lied to her. So nothing will get accomplished yet again.

So who the hell do you choose? Which is the least worst evil amongst Johnson or Corbyn?

I actually don't know who to pick. Both suck. Tempted just to spoil my vote now to be honest. Either way the country is screwed from Friday.

I somewhat ironically noted they set the bar for their rich tax at 80k, which is just a few quid short of an MP salary I had to look that up when DH pointed it out

Disagree strongly. Labour's policies would make amazing changes to the lives of so many people, the majority of people who are struggling right now after years of Tory austerity. SNP are full of wind, lived under them for years and they have cut and cut local authority budgets, all they are interested in is Indy, so would prefer the Tories in power so they can moan about their grievances with Westminster (or Wastemonster). Boris is a horrible, dangerous man, unfit to be PM, all his government are interested in is making massive profits and providing huge tax breaks for their rich pals. God help the NHS under them. It will be sold off and that will be the end of it. Vote Labour!

Christ. Okay.

You said: "You make that sound as though Labour had nothing to do with the need for austerit measures."

I misinterpreted this as you saying that Labour were to blame. Sorry for that. It wasn't a deliberate misrepresentation. And I'm not engaging in any of the rhetorical techniques you've named. I haven't been trying to argue ANYTHING other than that Labour and the Tories are not the same morally and ethically.

Well, I would always choose the one, who does not hide from the press in a fridge.

Thanks for starting this thread OP, I haven’t read all the replies but I feel exactly the same. I literally have no idea to vote for. It’s like deciding on which death is the least painful to be honest! The leaders are dire, no one can have a decent debate with anyone else without it descending into name calling and insults. I feel I have to vote but I genuinely have no idea who to vote for!

BuzzShitbagBobbly That's my point exactly! You think Labour want to tax "hard-working normal people" and that's morally wrong because people work really hard for their money. That's what the Tories also think. Labour think it's morally right to tax "rich people" to support the poor. Different moral standpoints. That's all I'm saying. The two parties are not the same. (I'm using "" there because essentially we're talking about the same group of people but we view them in different ways.)

Disagree strongly. Labour's policies would make amazing changes to the lives of so many people

Based on what proof? It's a document written with the sole purpose of winning a competition. You seem to believe this claim with an almost religious fervour, to the same fervent extent you disbelieve the other side.

Why don't you appreciate that both sides are full of shit? It's naive to be so wilfully blind.

It's only words... (some in capitals)

And, all that aside, I still disgree. I don't think you could get a cigarette paper between the morals of either party leader! And both parties are as fragmented and despereat as ech other, I find the mere existence of Momentum to be quite horrifying, its background, starting point is all very hippy, outdated and entirely unrealistic!

Peach " Labour think it's morally right to tax "rich people" to support the poor. Different moral standpoints. That's all I'm saying"

I think we are looking at the same coin with different lenses.

I think "rich people" already pay their fair share to support those less well-off. As we all do according to our income.

You think (I think? this is getting complicated! ) they should be made to pay more than the fair share they already pay. But how much more? Why? Why is their current "fair share" unfair?

We have a devolved Welsh Government here in Wales that has protected us from many of the deepest cuts of the Austerity Programme.

I agree. I'm in NI and it's depressing that most protestants will vote for the DUP to "keep the other side out". I hate it. I just want people to vote for people who actually aren't hateful bigots. I want the stupid polarised voting to stop.

It won't, though. DUP and SF majority. A handful of UUP/SDLP/Alliance. The odd Green candidate. They'll only pop up in Belfast. And then another 1000 days of no government.

How depressing.

BuzzShitbagBobbly I was never debating whether Labour or the Tories were right, just that they were different.

But for the record I would vote for tax increases across higher earners (and I include myself in that, despite earning less than £25k) to support the NHS and improve social care. And I'll consider the share "fair" when people are no longer living and dying in poverty.

We currently have Trump LiteTM. And I'm not so sure about the lite bit

I'm a swing voter, and I absolutely hate some things about the Labour party. Lib dems are a no starter for me, and I'd love to vote for Greens, if there was any chance of them getting my seat at all.

But most of all I cannot vote for the party that has spent the last 9 years killing off poor and disabled people and who have run the shitshow that is Brexit to date. I seriously considered spoiling my ballot or voting for the monster racing looney party candidate, but it's too important to do that.
I will hold my nose and vote for the least worst option, Labour. It's pretty damming faint praise to say that I think they'd run the country like a shitshow, just not as badly as the Tories.

Happy fucking christmas

Peach "But for the record I would vote for tax increases across higher earners (and I include myself in that, despite earning less than £25k) to support the NHS and improve social care. And I'll consider the share "fair" when people are no longer living and dying in poverty.

I don't think we could ever give the NHS enough money. It's so ridiculously badly set up, managed and run now, but no party will ever touch that 3rd rail and actually get to grips with it, so it is sticking plasters all the way. There will always be something that misses out funding.

I also think a strong(er) national economy benefits more people more permanently and I don't believe Labour have the funding or will to do that, and instead feel that shoring individuals up with state money is the better choice. Which as you say, is not casting aspersions, its just a different way of addressing the same problem.

(It's been quite nice having a civil discussion with you on this, my SM has been a cesspit of people being vile, so thanks! But I have to go out now !)

Thanks BuzzShitbagBobbly, it's been really interesting. Sometimes good to remind myself that there are compassionate Conservatives out there as I think that can be lost when the current crop of politicians are representing you (I'm sure a similar case could be made for financially sensible Labour voters!).

I am very happy with Corbyn.

Just be cautious about voting for A.N.Other. Look at the figures in your seat. You may inadvertently get your least favoured option, but then I don't agree that the two main options are equally crap. If neither are going exactly where you would like to go vote for the one going nearest.

I am pretty sure Corbyns intentions are good but still could never consider voting labour They want a too bigger state run uk
They want to secure yet another deal for Brexit which I suspect will be a very soft option and then another referendum What happens if this turns out to be remain but with similar percentages to the leave vote. Wont this cause more trouble ? Best of three?
Corbyn is typical for Labour tax anything that moves It wont just hit those over £80k Corporation tax applies to all Ltd companies big or small Also removing what is left of the dividends tax allowance also hits small business owners

We have a devolved Welsh Government here in Wales that has protected us from many of the deepest cuts of the Austerity Programme. The Plaid Cymru speaker on J Vine didn't seem to be able to make that point without a little giggle in his voice - might have been nerves, but his was taking the piss out of that devolved Labour government at the time - as in "You say you will do all of these things when you have power, but you are in charge of a devolved government in Wales and haven't done ANY of those things. Why not?"

I wished it had been a debate, I would have been interested in seeing that question talked through!