Let's face reality both options are crap - election

[ChristmasSweet]

Both Johnson or Corbyn are shit options. Both have a lot of downsides. I've yet to find a positive side to either of them. Both lie, both are childish, both will ruin the country in their own unique ways.

Yet there's really no point in voting for any of the others. Snp will never get into power, they are just a wasted vote, as are Plaid cymru, dup etc as they only serve one country. Lib dems are a joke and have been for years.

Yes there is the lovely idea of 'but if we all vote for the lib dems/whoever they could win'. Not really going to happen at this late stage is it? A rainbow coalition is about the most likely scenario, but that didn't exactly work well between the tories and lib dems did it? I can't see Corbyn and sturgeon getting along once she realises he's lied to her. So nothing will get accomplished yet again.

So who the hell do you choose? Which is the least worst evil amongst Johnson or Corbyn?

I actually don't know who to pick. Both suck. Tempted just to spoil my vote now to be honest. Either way the country is screwed from Friday.

I'm not arguing about the cause of the financial crisis. Well, it makes sense to knwo the casue of something before you start trying to fix it, doesn't it?

I'm simply refuting your statement that Labour are in any way the same as the Tories when it comes to morals and ethics. They are not. That's fine. Many people disgree with me, until a few years ago I would have disgreed with me! But telling me that doesn't help as I beleive, have heard and seen Labour actions, that are every bit as reprehensible . Many have been discussed ad nauseum on various threads.

You yourself decided to take one such out of the equation earlier... Setting aside accusations of anti-Semitism (on the Labour side) and Islamaphobia (on the Tory side) which looks very much like a Monty Python sketch to me! (Yes, apart form the roads, the water, the schools, what have the Romans ever doe for us?)

^Plus 88% of the Tories political ads this election period have been found to be misleading, whereas none of Labour's have.* You can't be that naive? Please!

No party was to blame for the 2008 financial crisis. The Conservatives are to blame for the wrong response to the financial crisis (they should have borrowed to invest, rather than imposed austerity). I don't disgree, but 2008 wasn't the first crash I lived through and Labourt didn't do much better - as in that note about there being no money left, ha ha fucking ha!

Again, until about 5 years ago I had been a card carrying Labour member for all of my adult life. I am NOT a Tory voter. I am currently politically homeless and trying to work out how to use my vote, not waste it. I have NEVER missed voting. I don't want to start now!

Well, it makes sense to knwo the casue of something before you start trying to fix it, doesn't it? World-class economists haven't been able to agree a "cause" of the financial crisis, so I don't think we're going to be able to do it.

have heard and seen Labour actions, that are every bit as reprehensible Like what? As I said, aside from accusations of anti-Semitism which can easily be countered by accusations of Islamaphobia.

You can't be that naive? Please! What, to trust an independent study which found exactly that? I'm not saying that Labour have never lied or mislead the public. But they absolutely do not do it at the same rate as the Tories.

For someone who claims to be so historically anti-Tory and so reluctant to vote for them this time around you're doing a lot of work on this forum to try to dissuade people from voting Labour.

I'm simply refuting your statement that Labour are in any way the same as the Tories when it comes to morals and ethics. They are not.

That's easy to say from the sidelines though. Especially when people will give you votes for saying things that sound good with no need to prove it beforehand.

I could tell you here and now I am hands down the best female runner the world has ever known. I am amazing, I have won tons of records and beaten loads of PBs and I have a contract for sponsorship with a well known name who will back me in every race I enter. Just trust me and get me on the Olympic team for the 100m final please. I'll give you a Gold medal in return, promise. In fact i will literally give you personally my Gold medal when I win it! Sounds amazing, and anyone who doesn't support me is clearly a hateful, anti-British cunt. You'll support me, right?

(This cynicism applies to all parties. They all spout shit every time they open their mouths and I am disappointed so many people will believe 100% of one side and 0% of another)

As I said, whether or not either party is telling the truth is, of course, completely questionable. But they have entirely different moral standpoints and cannot be called "the same". That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying which one is "better". Just that they're entirely different.

World-class economists haven't been able to agree a "cause" of the financial crisis, so I don't think we're going to be able to do it. So blaming any one party is a tad futile!

Like what? Really? I'm not saying that Labour have never lied or mislead the public. But they absolutely do not do it at the same rate as the Tories. No you said NEVER Quote Plus 88% of the Tories political ads this election period have been found to be misleading, whereas none of Labour's have.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50726500

Your assertion is only found on a Labour site!

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-antisemitism-corbyn-general-election-campaign-sam-matthews-a9234611.html

But you want to ignore anti semitism...

For someone who claims to be so historically anti-Tory and so reluctant to vote for them this time around you're doing a lot of work on this forum to try to dissuade people from voting Labour. Where? I am just pointing out that both of the main parties are equally inept, spin far fetched unsuportable tales and expect is to swallow them whole.

Seriously. For every Tory lie you can find a Labour lie, evasion, untruth, squirm, spin etc etc. We have dishonest politicians on all sides running dishonest campaigns, selling us different impossible Utopia... and I don't know how to choose between the lies any more!

*But they have entirely different moral standpoints and cannot be called "the same". That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying which one is "better". Just that they're entirely different. Which is almost exactly what I have been saying... but I put it that they are equally bad in slightly different ways. I suspect that the main difference between us is that I am more disillusioned with Labour than you are!

(This cynicism applies to all parties. They all spout shit every time they open their mouths and I am disappointed so many people will believe 100% of one side and 0% of another) That! Precisely!

So blaming any one party is a tad futile! I didn't do that. You did.

Really? Yes, really.

No you said NEVER No, I didn't. I said that the study found that none of the Labour political ads this election period were misleading. Not the same as saying Labour never lie.

What Labour site? Are you saying the BBC are a Labour site? The study is a by a non-partisan group.

They are not "equally bad in different ways". Depending on your own personal standpoint (should the rich give back to care for the poor? Or should people be rewarded for their own successes? i.e., in the crudest terms, do you lean more towards socialism or right-wing capitalism?) then one party is morally superior.

I didn't do that. You did. Don't back track now. I specifically said that NO PARTY was blameless!

I said that the study found that none of the Labour political ads this election period were misleading. No. I found a study you may have been referring to. You gave no back up info, just said No Labour ad had been found to be a lie! It's only a page or so back!

And no not the BBC site, obviously! I found your assertion on a labour facebook site. Others looking at the data it referred to have debunked it.. I gave instances!

“ Depending on your own personal standpoint (should the rich give back to care for the poor? Or should people be rewarded for their own successes?”

Or both? As in you don’t start giving back until your own successes have been rewarded. Which is what Labour are saying.

@peachgreen it's become too much like juggling jelly. All that moving of goalposts, changing stance (and downright lying/obfiscation).

I'll leave you to it!

Agree both choices are rubbish. Realistically my seat is labour or conservative. Currently At 2017 labour 22000, conservatives 20000, next down just over 1000. Leave or remain/left or right voting for other parties just splits the vote potentially letting the “other side” win.

I’ll be voting labour but with heavy heart. Personally I don’t like the thought of spoiling ballot or not voting.
(I do think these are valid choices, I think soldiers/suffrage movement won our right to vote not our obligation to.)

BertrandRussell Yes, sorry - I was simplifying for the sake of the comparison (and to try not to be accused of bias!).

Curious Okay, I didn't use the words "a study" but it's clear that I was referring to a study as I gave the exact statistics. And you might have found it linked to on a Labour facebook page but it was conducted by a non-partisan group.

All that moving of goalposts, changing stance (and downright lying/obfiscation) I'm not sure if you're referring to me or the parties here! But just for clarification, my stance is the same as it was at the very beginning of this conversation: Labour and the Tories are not the same, or comparable on a moral or ethical level.

Depending on your own personal standpoint (should the rich give back to care for the poor? Or should people be rewarded for their own successes?

Putting aside the nice/nasty appeal to emotion there, taxes take care of the first part in either case. The more you earn, the more you pay, by quite a significant factor. I pay the equivalent of a lot of people's full time wage in tax every month and I think it is a fair contribution for me to make. I also pay into a private pension so I won't be reliant on state help (other peoples taxes) when I am old, actively trying to reduce my 'take' from the State as well. I don't especially see why I should pay some undefined sum above and beyond my fair share as a kangaroo court punishment?

And people being rewarded for their own successes is a fact of life under either colour too. Some people will always make more money or have better jobs or bigger houses. Labour MPs were just as quick to hoover up the expenses as well as the Tories, before they got caught, and they should have been the living breathing exemplars of their equality and fairness for all policies. Even in a socialist/communist paradise, some people will always be on top, unless you really believe in the furthest extremes of that belief system (in which case then yes we do disagree).

BuzzShitbagBobbly I was genuinely trying to avoid nice/nasty but couldn't think of a better way to word it. I'm sure there are lots of Tory voters who would argue that taxing hard-working people and punishing them for their success is pretty nasty - as you illustrated in your reply! That's your moral standpoint and it's the Tory one too - and without making any judgement on whether it's right or not, I'm sure we can all agree it's not the same as Labour's. And that's literally all I'm arguing here.

Okay, I didn't use the words "a study" but it's clear that I was referring to a study as I gave the exact statistics. And you might have found it linked to on a Labour facebook page but it was conducted by a non-partisan group. Which, as I found when I Googled it, had been questioned by quite a range of people. I linked to them to show what I meant.

*Im not sure if you're referring to me or the parties here!I I meant you an d said so a pst or so back! You mis represented me and side stepped to make your point. Your post is a page or two back, as is the one of mine you chose to mis represent!

But just for clarification, my stance is the same as it was at the very beginning of this conversation: Labour and the Tories are not the same, or comparable on a moral or ethical level. Well, except for the caveats you set out, yes. And I still disagree with you!

Bah! Bold fails

This is my ninth GE as a voter, and the choice on offer to the British public in 2019 is easily the worst I have known.

Johnson and Corbyn are both unfit to be PM, but for very different reasons. Johnson could not be trusted to run anything. Corbyn is not competent to run anything.

Both main parties have been dragged to the extremes leaving millions of moderate voters homeless. FPTP is just about the worst voting system possible in a democracy. Brexit has poisoned our country our society and our politics.

Our best hope is for a hung Parliament in which the SNP & the Lib Dems have enough leverage to demand Corbyn’s resignation as the price of their support. Then replace him with Keir Starmer and have a second referendum.

I meant you an d said so a pst or so back! You mis represented me and side stepped to make your point. Your post is a page or two back, as is the one of mine you chose to mis represent! I don't even know what you're talking about here. What did I side-step? Which post of yours did I misrepresent?

I was with you until that last paragraph. A hung parliament will go as the last 3 years have gone. Stagnation and points scoring.

And the assumption that your personal choice of second referendum, presumably Remain. Not every poster will agree.

I think Bertrand and others are right. We need all to vote for the Brexit outcome we desire, regardless of who the party is. Regardless of what that is it will end the stagnation and, as no option is a good option any more, we can at least start being politically active as country again!

Interestingly, I have been told that a larger Conservative majority will lead to a more moderate government because they won't be beholden to the ERG (Rees-Mong's group) to get policy through parliament. It actually makes sense when you stop to think about it. For all Boris Johnson's personal failings, before Brexit came along he was very much in the centre ground of politics, whereas the ERG were all much more right wing. As the Conservative are likely to form the next government anyway, I am actually hoping that they can do this without relying on the ERG or the DUP.

What did I side-step? Which post of yours did I misrepresent? It's there.

So blaming any one party is a tad futile! I didn't do that. You did. I didn't blame any one party. I said, very clearly, using CAPITAL LETTERS that ALL PARTIES share the blame for our current financial position. Yet your come back is that I said one party was to blame!

And you are now side stepping all over... equivicating, reframing your self, putting up other ideas to be argued.

It is really simple. Neither Labour nor Conservatives are fit to be elected and no other party will be, or are fit themselves. We have about as poor a selection pool as it is possible to get. UK politics is in a dire state and has been for years.

I'd lead a bloodless revolution if I couldl work out how to get enough people motivated!

taxing hard-working people and punishing them for their success is pretty nasty - as you illustrated in your reply! That's your moral standpoint and it's the Tory one too - and without making any judgement on whether it's right or not, I'm sure we can all agree it's not the same as Labour's.

But it is? They have been very clear about taxing people more. Once they've squeezed what extra they can from the nasty rich people they are demonising like panto villains, they'll move to the next tier. And when the money runs out from that tier, they'll have to move on again. And whether you earn 9k, 90K or 900k, who can judge your "hard work worthiness"? I'd not be my CEO for double his salary quite honestly, it looks like a horrible job that he can never stop working at!

(I somewhat ironically noted they set the bar for their rich tax at 80k, which is just a few quid short of an MP salary )