DC15 wants to identify as female

[FrogInAHat23]

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

Nobody is denying that trans people have extremely strong feelings about what they wish their sex was, or even what they feel it to be even though it's not. Nobody is denying the reality of intense dysphoria.

What people aren't agreeing with is the idea that the presence of this intense dysphoria, of these strong feelings of wishing to be the opposite sex, or even of certainty that one is, should actually be something that makes a person legally, politically etc. a member of the opposite sex class to the one they were observed to be part of at birth.

When we say "humans can't change sex", we don't mean "humans shouldn't be allowed to dress the way they want, ask (not demand) people to call them 'she', change their name and so on". We just mean you cannot change your biological sex, and that matters.

A man might long to be a woman but no matter how strong that longing or how powerful the certainty that he is a woman, that's not enough for him to leave behind his membership of the male sex class, because that is based on his biology and not his feelings. And it matters a lot for women's safety and rights that we don't suddenly say that actually those strong feelings mean someone gets to no longer be treated as male in every single circumstance, and gets to be treated as female instead, just because they want to, and sod how women feel.

Im saying your own feelings about yourself have little bearing on this argument, Wotcha. Women's rights in law are based on their biological sex, not their feelings

See, I agree to an extent and am listening to what you're saying - so much so that I've edited your post so that your correction is in my bold bit.
I can see that women's biological needs are met is priority (I mean, I am one) but on the other hand I know it's not just biology for me.

Men assault and murder women as well - all the bloody time - but somehow this isn’t as important as how men who identify as women feel

Has anyone, anywhere, said that? Certainly haven't seen it said on this thread

*Men assault and murder women as well - all the bloody time - but somehow this isn’t as important as how men who identify as women feel

Has anyone, anywhere, said that? Certainly haven't seen it said on this thread*

Why do you think some women don’t want men in their single-sex spaces? Why does self-ID concern some women? It is “transphobia” or perhaps some other concern?

Well Wotcha, thank you for that, but I would simply ask you to think about Jane's question - whose feeling take priority? A woman who wants a women's only space, or a man's who feels like he is woman?

There is an undeniable clash of rights here - and it is unprecedented - it is not the same as gay right - gay rights were asking for equality, not to be classed as as another oppressed class due to their feelings.

No matter anybdy's feelings on this - the fact remains that women's rights in law exist because they are oppressed by the male class. Surely asking us to admit a few, or an unlimited number, of males (under self ID) to the oppressed class of 'biological female' is a step too far? Just because of their professed feelings? Don't women's feelings and rights matter as much?

gay rights were asking for equality, not to be classed as as another oppressed class due to their feelings

Is your sexuality just a feeling though? I'm straight by the way, just wondering as this stood out to me - is sexuality a feeling? I thought it was just who you are.

See, to me, the whole TWAW argument is just another example of the feelings - the wishes - of born males taking priority over the needs, feelings and safety of born females. It's just more of the same.

And when it comes to my daughter - who is only 11, but already has a transgirl frequenting her changing rooms at school - I will fight for women and girls.

My post was not saying being gay was just a feeling, no. Exactly the opposite actually. I was saying that gay rights were not infringing on another oppressed group - unlike trans rights - which are.

I was saying that gay rights were not infringing on another oppressed group - because of a feeling* - unlike trans rights - which are.

Bolding mess up there - but you get the meaning.

Sexuality is an orientation. And irrelevant to the conversation. When a child comes out as lesbian or gay or bi, the appropriate parental response is 'great', and nothing - other than sourcing sex ed material relevant to your child - else needs to happen. Having a minority sexual orientation has no implication for a child's physical integrity or for the rights of others.

The argument for treating males as if they were females at all time and in all contexts, on the basis of a self-declared identity, even if that causes disadvantage to females - that argument needs to stop hiding behind the skirts of the LBG and argue on its own merits.

I have a lesbian child; raising a same sex oriented female child is NOTHING like raising a trans identified child.

Sexuality is an orientation. And irrelevant to the conversation

It's not irrelevant to the conversation at all though, it was a good point regardless of whether you want to acknowledge that or not.

I have a lesbian child; raising a same sex oriented female child is NOTHING like raising a trans identified child.

Apologies if wrong but is this a different child to the two who you said was trans earlier but you'd said they were not trans and could present how they wish?

Yep. Different sibling. Some of us have more than two children.

Why - do you have a problem with that ?

I hope you're not insinuating what I think you are.

Yep. Different sibling. Some of us have more than two children Why - do you have a problem with that ? I hope you're not insinuating what I think you are

no idea what you think I'm insinuating. No problem at all. Just you said you had two trans kids but you hadn't mentioned on addition to two trans kids you had a gay child too as well, fair enough then if so

You know very well what you're insinuating with your 'fair enough, if so'.

There's no if. This is my life, these are my kids, I know what I'm talking about.

Prosecute your arguments on their own merits. First y'all tried to use homophobia to prosecute your case, then intersex, and now you're happy to insinuate that those who disagree with you are liars. Really weak argument there.

Apologies if anyone has already mentioned this as I didn’t read every comment, but there’s an app called “Refuge” which shows where you can find trans friendly and unisex toilets in your area. I hope that helps.
However, if they would prefer to use female only toilets then personally I would explain how other women may feel about that, and go from there.
I’m also trans, however I’m FTM so slightly different, and until I’ve transitioned I’m still using female toilets whenever unisex isn’t available, and plan on using Male toilets once I am done with my transition. Perhaps that could be a goal as such?

I’m arguing that women’s spaces should be for all people who identify as women

Even Karen white? Jonathon yaniv?

And when it comes to my daughter - who is only 11, but already has a transgirl frequenting her changing rooms at school - I will fight for women and girls.

So I presume this transgirl is a child too? Is she also 11? Do you mean to imply you are trying to get this child excluded from using the girls changing rooms? How incredibly cruel and awful of you. This poor child is not hurting your daughter . Let her be.

I cannot understand why there is so much anger and hatred on this thread. Please, please will everyone stop calling trans women “males who want to be women”, and the like. Every time you do so, it makes me cringe. A person’s sex/ gender is incredibly complicated and personal; you don’t have jurisdiction to define someone else’s experience. I’m sorry that you think that infringes on your rights- but really it doesn’t. It’s so painful to have to read this.

Oh seriously, it's not 'cruel and terrible' for a male child to use a third space, if he needs one.

Being male is the precondition for being a transgirl or a transwoman. How strange that you think it must never be mentioned.

I am terribly disinterested in the cringing of those who call themselves 'allies' but actually do nothing to help those of us with kids with GD.

A person’s sex/ gender is incredibly complicated and personal; you don’t have jurisdiction to define someone else’s experience. I’m sorry that you think that infringes on your rights- but really it doesn’t. It’s so painful to have to read this. sad

You keep saying that human sex categories are “complicated” and then providing no evidence for this, beyond coy descriptions of how it’s hard to “define”.

If you’re going to make something as straight forward as 2 sex categories, one that produces large gametes and another than produces small, motile gametes “incredibly complicated” then your pain will continue.

Please, please will everyone stop calling trans women “males who want to be women”, and the like.

It's not an insult. The surgeons who carry out the relevant surgeries have to think of transwomen like this, in order to do their material-reality-based tasks. Would you cringe at them for doing so too? Subjective concepts like gender identity are irrelevant there except as the background reason for the surgery taking place. Discussions of the law, of the effects on women and women's spaces of transitioning males and so on are other contexts where that is also true.

I understand your reaction if you're not used to discussing this sort of thing with precise language, and are used to having the mantra of 'TWAW' as the set in stone premise to every discussion, but speaking in precise terms about biological sex is not the insult you think it is, and it is not a sign of hatred.

I agree that gender is complicated though. How many are there now? Over 60?

As long as one side is claiming scientific facts are 'hurtful' and 'cruel' this will never be an open and fair debate.

So I presume this transgirl is a child too? Is she also 11? Do you mean to imply you are trying to get this child excluded from using the girls changing rooms? How incredibly cruel and awful of you. This poor child is not hurting your daughter

You don't know what you're talking about. How do you know whether it's hurting my daughter or not? Has she talked to you about it? Of course not, it's me she talks to. So don't presume to know anything about it.

FYI - this child is male and wears a boy's uniform. The girls do not want to get changed with a male. What about my daughter, and the other girls?

Bizawit - you don’t have jurisdiction to define someone else’s experience.

And yet you just tried to define my daughters?