to wonder why parts of Mumsnet are so intolerant

[rhubarbcrumbles]

Just that really, I've been on here pretty much since MN started and I'm seeing more and more racist posts and they are being allowed to stand.

More people are being critical of people on low incomes and judging them and it's not the supportive place it once was.

"My friend was not a misogynist trying to colonise women’s spaces. She was a quiet, gentle woman with considerate advice and a lot of people who loved her".

i don't disbelieve you, but please understand that this is not the point. a female space is just that- it does not exist to validate someone's delusion however benign their intentions. what happened to your friend is awful and they sound like a kind person in that they didnt want to discomfort or scare women by using their spaces. but it's not up to women to sort this out. again, just because someone feels unhappy as a man or wishes/feels like a woman doesn't make it so- it's a manifestation of unrest of some kind, sure- but ffs people are not born in the wrong bodies and it's horrendous to suggest that people (including very young kids) are, however well intended.

sorry if that sounds insensitive- i promise you the feminist forum on here is overwhelmingly clear that transwomen pose no greater threat than do men in general- and i don't hate men, i'm a big fan! i don't think transwomen arebunch of sexual predators/deviants and i know that they certainly do not comprise one homogenous group (many are straight ie interested in women; some are gay ie into men). but they are men- no matter clothes, surgery, affectation, whatever and their struggle with the confines of masculinity are not more important than how women feel around men due to a lifetime of experience of being a biological woman.

In a series of investigative journalism by radio lab I listened to a series of doctors and scientists at the top of their fields describe the ways in which a fetus can change from developing towards one sex to developing toward another based on conditions in the womb.
It’s actually not uncommon in the animal kingdom for even sexually mature adults to change sex due to environmental conditions.

Biology is so much more complicated than we give it credit for.

That’s before we consider the natural variations of intersex with species.

I have already said up thread that I don’t understand it either. It’s seems utterly baffling to me in many ways but I have to accept the lived experience of my friends and beyond.

Sometimes gender dysphoria is a symptom of another mental illness and it should be approached with caution.
In my opinion no one should be encouraged to transition at any age, the drive should come from them but if it is there over the long term and they reach an age of maturity then it is their body and their right to alter it if they see fit.

No one is under any obligation to dress or act in a way that matches with your expectations of their genitals and you have no right to go around saying they are crazy, with no medical qualifications, just because you don’t understand it.

So now we're at 'but clownfish' already.

IME there are some nasty, rude and aggressive posters on here, but there are lots of lovely people too who are supportive, funny and give good advice. It’s a mixed bag - just like real life I guess.

HerenaHarridan sex is determined at conception, not in utero. Perhaps they were talking about Disorders of sexual development?

I call this Tuppence Ha'penny looking down on Tuppence
Or people making entirely standard human observations.

I'm sure some people will look at me doing the food shop in my gym clothes and think "you're not in the sodding gym woman" .

That's my point. Everyone makes judgements and everyone observes the world around them.

... Unless you're on MN and then there's people who positively fall over themselves to suggest they couldn't possibly think anything negative at all about anyone because they're so much more enlightened than the rest of us. They'd never look at a group of chavs sitting outside the hospital smoking and playing music from their phones and think anything negative because that would be so judgey and the first rule of being a good MNer is to pretend that you're oh so open minded and class blind.

So. Much. Transphobia.

I had to block the "feminism chat" board because it was depressing the crap out of me seeing the hate of trans people every day. You can discuss women's issues without calling every transwoman a predator who is only using the women's bathroom in order to assault women.

Also a huge number of people who call children and teenagers "mentally ill" for coming out as trans. What a tolerant society we are! Insulting children!

It's a shame because I'm a feminist but that's not feminism:

Any transphobia I've seen has been deleted.

I get very annoyed at the lie perpetuated by a few that MN is transphobic. And the constant reporting and trying to get people banned.

Women are allowed to discuss issues that matter to them Get over it.

I can’t help feeling a certain faction are really trying to completely shut down all and any discussion of trans issues that affect women.
Saying Mumsnet is transphobia on a regular basis is part of this. It appears any discussion that in involves trans women is deemed transphobic.
You are totally entitled to be a trans activist but I thought your argument is that we are all meant to be equal ?

Unless you think trans women are more women than women and deserve special treatment.
I see it as all the same thing dressed up differently - men telling women what to do, say and think like they always have. Yawn.

And as already been stated, the issue is not with trans people, it's with the broadening of the term trans which would allow any male to gain access to female spaces. Trans people should be just as concerned about this. In fact, some are but get shouted down too.

@LolaSmiles I'm working class and I'm not class blind. You can't be in my situation. But I hate the word "chav" and would never use it because I don't think I'm better than anyone else.

WC people who use the term "chav" and look down on those people do it to try and make themselves feel better because some MC and upper class look down on them, and so on. A vicious circle. Anyone who sniggers about "chavs" is a twat of the highest order.

When men says that something isn't sexist, they get told that men can't say what is sexist.
When white people say that something isn't racist, they get told that white people can't say what is racist.
When able bodied people say something isn't disablist, they get told that able bodied people can't say what is disablist.
When younger people say something isn't ageist, they get told that younger people can't say what is ageist.
When non Jewish people say something isn't anti-semitic, they get told that non Jewish people can't say what is anti-semitic.

Who gets to say what is and isn't transphobic?

Anyone who sniggers about "chavs" is a twat of the highest order.
In which case most of my region is a twat of the highest order because people routinely talk about chavs.

I don't there's anything wrong in thinking loutish anti social behaviour is wrong, that sitting outside the entrance to hospitals in your pyjamas, playing chav music and smoking is ok. I don't think congregating in bus stops and being verbally abusive and intimidating to the general public is ok.

If that makes me a twat then so be it.
It's only on MN that I've ever seen people get tied up in knots over it.

Who is saying that loutish anti social behaviour is OK? No one.

Using the word "chav" to describe those behaviours and to lump together a group of people of a certain social group is not OK either.

It’s a microcosm, reflective of Little Britain. Sad but true.

Also, I wouldn't bat an eyelid about people sitting outside a hospital in pyjamas smoking to be honest.

I have seen a fair amount of homophobia and racism. Pretty much always from some trans privilege activist who has shown up to lecture women rightly concerned about our safety, privacy and dignity. Also see an awful lot of disablism, classism and vitriolic misogyny from the trans privilege types.

More widely anti-Irish bigotry is common, as is bigotry towards Eastern Europeans, the travelling community and other ethnic minority groups who don't fit the 'woke' vision of 'privilege' based as it is on North American issues that are of, at best, limited relevance to the Old World.

"You can discuss women's issues without calling every transwoman a predator who is only using the women's bathroom in order to assault women"

I spend a lot of time reading the MN feminist boards and haven't seen anyone say that. I mainly see the risks of self Id being discussed. It's a different thing.

The transphobic threads do need to stop though. I was thinking about it the other day. Eg changing room threads. Fair enough, I absolutely think if companies are bringing in these policies they need floor to ceiling rooms with proper locks and doors (and to have a check for cameras at close each night), but we mostly hear about these one or two creepy stories on the news. Probably a similar amount to us hearing about suicide bombers/extremists in the UK. Yet, most of us know that that is a very small minority and we shouldn't judge an entire religion/culture by their actions. I struggle to see why this isn't the same with those transitioning. I do have some issues with self ID and the process, but not even transwoman/man are creepy, rapey paedophiles

You have missed the point.

The mention of the likes of people IDing as trans who are predators and the fact that there are more crimes against women committed in mixed environments than single sex very clearly isn't intended to suggest that this is representative of trans people. It's to point out that accepting that a woman is anyone who says they are, means that we don't have any way of protecting ourselves against males who want to use these legal provisions to harm women.

They don't actually need to be representative. Thankfully they aren't. They just need to exist in the same society as laws and policies allowing them to access women's spaces.