to wonder why parts of Mumsnet are so intolerant

[rhubarbcrumbles]

Just that really, I've been on here pretty much since MN started and I'm seeing more and more racist posts and they are being allowed to stand.

More people are being critical of people on low incomes and judging them and it's not the supportive place it once was.

Got quiet on the benefits threads for a while. Not now.

I don't mind a bit of the trans debate now and then, but some people are completely obsessed with it and it has taken over Mumsnet. It's a minor thing surely? I've never even met a trans person in all my 47 years. Women and children face much, much bigger real life problems than this day in, day out. It's been complexly blown out of all proportion and it's very boring. I think it's a red herring designed to steer people to the right.

I've been on MN on and off for a decade. Names change but I don't think that the levels of support and/or judgey intolerance alter much tbh.
Certain issues ramp up when they get a lot of exposure.

Because different cultures have different norms?

Quite. So by saying in the OP that they are 'whatever colour they are' is racist, no?

Gardai

Do you seriously imagine I am going to trawl through 5 year old threads to prove myself to you?

I know what I saw, time and time again.

It drove me off mn. Fortunately it is a bit better now.

I am not trying to censor anyone and I am the first to call out people trying to shit down reasonable discussion.
I have no issue with discussing the politics behind changing rooms or prison allocation but it’s is possible to do that without being a bigot.

Shit down 😆

My auto correct knows me well apparently

Herrena- it’s totally unfair to quote things to allegedly prove your point and not have any hard evidence.

I do notice the racism, and the problem is, I don't get the impression posters are aware they're being racist.

It's funny, because I am white, but I live in a very diverse country, so it's easy to notice my own privilege, plus any racist remark (unintended as it can be) gets called out at once. Of course, I'm pretty sure this is just my group of friends, racism is a massive problem everywhere.

There is a massive fucking difference between raising concerns about the practical applications of inclusion of trans people and calling them deranged and perverted.

I agree. Just because you have a valid concern about how some malevolent males might exploit self-ID, that doesn't mean that you are not being transphobic when you make blanket sweeping negative assumptions and generalisations about an entire group, their motives, their thought processes, or deliberately misrepresent them.

I've thought for a while now that the term "gender critical" being used to denote the opposition of trans rights is the equivalent of those who were against extending gay rights calling themselves "bump-on-the-head critical".

Equivalent in the sense that when people say they are gender critical they mean they are gender stereotypes critical. So they are implying that trans people, all trans people are only trans because they realised they like this or don't like that stereotypical thing. Something that they don't actually know is the cause of gender or body disphoria.

Just like those who argue against same-sex rights calling themselves bump-on-the-head critical are similarly implying that all gay people are only gay because they received a bump on the head.

I would similarly think it reasonable to call it homophobic if some of the same rhetoric and misrepresentations that are used against trans-campaigners were to be used against gay rights campaigners. Talks of them wanting to "erase" marriage, "colonise" marriage, just because they want the term extended to include them. Endlessly misrepresenting them as attacking and abusing heterosexuals when it was homophobes (as they saw it) that were getting it in the neck. Heterosexuals per se were getting no bother.

I may not be on threads where racism raises its head I suppose. Most of the threads I am not do not talk about race, colour and that kind of thing.

We are certainly in a political situation with the election coming up where people have strong views on other issues but even there I a tolerant Tory am on many a discussion with tolerant Labour supporters and we manage pretty civilised debates [ vote Conservative].

Jesus JAPAB my brain can’t digest all of that. I may be too stupid but I’m a menopausal woman.

ValleyClouds
I think there's some amazing support for people with SN or disabilities, especially in terms of getting help for children in a really poor system.
But I still think there's loads of room to go in terms of wider understanding of SEND, neurodiversity on here. Either it becomes a quick way to gain woke points (Eg OP asked is Adam is being an arsehole and a poster will ignore the fact Adam has been an arsehole and will start asking about ASD), or there's shocking levels of understanding about life with additional needs / life for families of children with additional needs.

Yes @LolaSmiles I am physically disabled but otherwise neurotypical.

The bandying about of "they might have SEN/MH you know" pisses me right off.

I am a disabled adult, I do not have "Special Needs"

Some people are just arseholes

Disabled people, of nearly every variety, are completely capable of also being an arsehole by CHOICE

One thing does not excuse or exonerate the other and it's wokery and simplistic thinking to pressure a poster that it does.

JAPB Not true!
there is an absolute acceptance that some people have genuine gender dysphoria- but this still doesn't make such a person a member of the opposite sex!
and why on earth should i be forced to undress around a man just cos he thinks he isn't one- even if i magically know that he poses no threat, i still don't want him in the changing room?!
transwomen/men are refugees from the gender stereotypes of their actual sex. Imagine if there were no gender stereotypes at all- would there be transgender people? How on earth could there be?! there would be nothing to become!!
the transgender movement is absolutely rooted in stereotypes

Gardai the headlines are: I am suggesting that "gender critical" as a title is transphobic in a similar way that "bump-on-"the-head critical" would be homophobic as a title.

And that some of the rhetoric and misrepresentation that is used against trans-campaigners would be called homophobic if used against gay rights campaigners.

So let's get this straight the word woman is problematic as it now means well who knows and now the word gender critical is pronlematicas well , thank goodness we have people around to tell women what they should say.

ValleyClouds
You're so right!
See also
OP: X was an arse
Reply: How old are they? Could it be dementia?

Some people are just arseholes and unkind.

Although someone should tell me how to write problematic

JAPAB

But homosexuality is an actual state of being, as evidenced by there being homosexuality evident within other species. Homosexuals largely sharevsomr physical similarities; counter clockwise hair whorls and differentials in ratio of index to ring finger for instance.

'Transsexuality' or gender dysphoria is a curiously wholly psychological, human pbenomenon. The two although both related to issues of gender and sexuality really in any meaningful way are not comparable.
In fact it may be comsidered offensive to homosexuals to suggest that they are

'Share some' autocorrect/fat finger fail.

transwomen/men are refugees from the gender stereotypes of their actual sex. Imagine if there were no gender stereotypes at all- would there be transgender people?

You and I could answer that question with our opinions but that is far from being proof. Believing something is true is not the same as knowing that it is.

And Maybe it is true that all gay people received a bump on the head. After all, most kids do at some point. Still you'd be on a sticky wicket to just assume this and call your opposition bump-omn-the-head critical. best call it something else like pro-traditional marriage or just plain old homosexual-critical.

But I will answer your question with my opinion anyway. I think you would have fewer trans people. But they would definately still exist. You would still have people who just have an inner sense of themselves as being men or women, their bodies not feeling normal to them etc etc.

And I think gender dysphoria needs to get back in to the DSM-IV;

Where it belongs, so that those people could receive the appropriate therapeutic treatment, as they deserve.

JAPAB - does that mean saying absolutely anything about trans issues at all is transphobic ?

Guardai- I didn’t quote anything. If I had used quotes then yes that would have required references. I talked about my experience of mn five years ago. That is not unfair to anyone I spent a lot of time on mn at the time. I gave and received a lot of valuable support eventually I was driven away by the vitriol towards trans women. I don’t need to provide evidence to talk about my experience. People do it all the time on this public forum.

Stop trying to shut me down and invalidate me because you don’t like what I have to say.

I am in favour of open frank discussion about the logistics of trans inclusivity.
I advocate strongly for there to be the necessary safeguards developed while accepting that no system will ever be perfect.

What I absolutely cannot tolerate is people who have decided that trans people are either deranged or sexually deviant.
Especially since many of them have never even met any trans people, it’s all based on horror stories in the news.

Most of the trans people I know are perfectly ordinary people just trying to get on with their lives.
Almost a year ago I had to help organise a funeral or a dear friend of mine. A trans woman whose mother expressed the same sentiments as HotSince82.
My friend was not a misogynist trying to colonise women’s spaces. She was a quiet, gentle woman with considerate advice and a lot of people who loved her.
She would become dehydrated and give herself utis from not going to the toilet out and about because she didn’t want to make people uncomfortable. Quite a lot of trans people I know do this.
They really aren’t out to get you!

Yes there are also some fucking horrible people out there and I have also seen some horrendous things said online by people claiming to be trans rights activists (come across more like shit stirrers to me especially when they start saying that paedophilia is another orientation) but that doesn’t mean that all trans people are either deranged or sexually deviant and that’s a fucking horrible thing to say.