To think this child needs a specialist school

[Londongirl86]

Hi all. I am concerned about a child at my child's school and her behaviour. A week ago my DD was attacked by this child at lunch. She rubbed food all over her face and punched her in the back. The teacher said she has problems and that doesn't excuse it but she's dealt with.

I went home happy enough and told my DD to keep away from her. Over the last few days two other parents knew straight away at the gates who had hurt her. The reason being their children had also been hurt by this child. She also gets angry in class and they have to evacuate there kids.

My friends child was hurt by this kid Thursday. And apparently she also kicked mine again. so we reported it yesterday morning. She came out of school yesterday and told me this child smacked her drink out her hand and stamped on her friends foot. The teachers said nothing to me after school. My child said she was taken indoors for being naughty.

Through conversation in the playground at least 7 kids have been attacked by her. She has problems and we know she's fostered. She clearly isn't able to cope. What is really upsetting is the teachers allowing her out at lunch to harm others. They said it's hard to watch her. You would think they would be concerned she will put a child in hospital if she kicks or pushes them wrong.

My child's only been at school 2 months. She's still settling. I'm annoyed I'm in a position now where I need to keep having words with the teachers. I don't want to become that annoying mum that's pestering them every day. But I also AM not comfortable with my child being put at risk by a violent child who is struggling.

What should be happening with all this? Surely she should be constantly with an adult or at a specialist school?

It is on that level. She threw one on the floor and kicked her back down several times in the back. She violently rubbed food allover my DD face then kicked her in both legs. My child hid being a bush in fear. She reached into a child's trousers and hurt him before kicking him in the hip. She has hit teachers and thrown desks. She had a bad day this week and they had several complaints of kids being thumped in the stomach and back. Nasty nasty. Not just a little push

OP
It's not about being miss perfect.
It's about thinking it's highly unpleasant for an adult to say another child should be out of the education system when they haven't a clue about that child's needs. It's thinking it's unpleasant talk about a child being an animal, to compare a vulnerable child's playground actions to pub violence.

It's not about being perfect. Some of us who work with vulnerable children just happen to think that there's unpleasant ways to speak about children and that it's absolutely possible to hold schools to account without such unkind sentiments about a child.

I agree with the messages that said to contact the Head about the safety of your child and the duty of care to your child. Keep a diary of incidents relating to your child.

I think you are correct to ask for daily updates regarding breaks and lunchtimes. Your child is entitled to go to school and feel safe and secure.

Dont mention the other child, focus on your child.

@LolaSmiles not out the system. I said options. Specialist schools. Someone working with her. Or home school. I'm going to think these things when she's violent.

I stated its not different to a man walking out a pub and launching someone. She is going out into a playground and doing the same thing. I was stating her behaviour is not acceptable and even if she can't help it, it's not right that she is hurting other children because she's angry or upset or suffering. She needs help and gradually being put into social situations she can handle. I think you are one track minded and are taking it personally because you are thinking of people you know and work with. It doesn't mean you are right. As I said it's life and it doesn't take a genius to work it out. If you think she's better off where she is slapping people about when she's angry then you don't understand children at all. You don't understand the damage it could cause others physically and mentally. I'd much rather people discussed things than a child suffer in silence for weeks because they don't know what she will do to them. There are other ways to be educated than in a mainstream school of she can't settle. Someone needs to keep her away from my child and others. An adult! They are responsible for all the children and their safety. If she's a danger to people they need to remove her from the school or keep her inside. Yes that's not great for her but the other children are not the ones causing problems to others. Do therefore it needs to be her removed. It's sad all around but it's a fact and always will be that she can't be left without help at this stage. If she's walking around with that much anger in her then she needs removing. One day a child will probably turn around and smack her back and she could fly off the handle at that child. It's a very scary messy situation. I have got ruder throughout the day to your replies because you have insulted me over and over again about being a gossip.

I think some of you are being very unfair to the OP. She doesn't know the girl who is hurting her much younger DD and others at the school. Of course she's not going to be instinctively compassionate to the girl who is bullying her and other children. (And yes, it is bullying.)

When it's your own child, you know the backstory. It's hard to be on the receiving end of my DD1's violence sometimes and to see her hurting my younger DD. (They're now 10 and 7, and get on much better apart from having the usual sibling spats. But I think that's because my DH and I have different strategies for dealing with it.)

But I know what is behind the anger, so I don't hold it against her. She's also my own DD and my responsibility. I also know what trauma does to a child, not only because of DD1 but because of my own traumatic childhood and the effect it had on me.

The OP has none of that. Her concern is for her own DD. Of course she knows it isn't the other girl's fault that she's as damaged as she is. But that doesn't mean that her DD is any less a victim of bullying, does it?

Basically, a girl of 7 shouldn't be able to terrorise a girl in reception. I suspect that if the OP hadn't mentioned that the bully was a looked after child, the thread would have gone very differently.

I agree - the looked-after aspect was a red herring.

Basically a 7 year is bullying a much younger child, and op wants to know what to do next.

OP - unless the LEA admit they've got nowhere to put her and they agree to home tutors for about 1 hour a week, home school is pretty much out of the system.

A looked after child is not going to educated at home by foster carers.

If she is being violent at home as well a possible outcome is that the foster placement breaks down and the child ends up moving schools as a result of that.

This dc may be lucky and have fc who are experienced enough and supported enough to be able to manage this behavior.

If this is an education only issue then the LA do have more resources to support the dc than a non lac dc can access but they take time to implement.

The school should be supporting both the dc and the other children more effectively. It is possible that they have decided they really don't want the dc at the school and are not preventing the behavior so they can fast track the dc out of the school.
Or they haven't recognized how serious the issues are and are being too slow to respond.
I have known both responses.

As others have said, the school wouldn't be able to discuss another child so when you talk to the school you need to focus on your own child's needs to be safe at school. I have 2 children who have disabilities that can cause them to display aggressive behaviour. Thankfully they usually manage to control it at school so it's mostly me who gets hit, bitten, kicked etc. The child in your dc's school probably has more severe needs. From your posts I would say that it's very likely that she isn't getting the support that she needs but I think that's the case for most children thanks to budget cuts.

@dreichXmas yes that's true about looked after children, that they can't just be taken out of school and be homeschooled, as I said myself earlier in the thread. I think that's a shame, as it could be another option on the table. Some children cope much better one to one.

Loveislandaddict
To be fair everyone on the first page, me included, said the focus should be on school safeguarding duties, not opinions on the child.

There's 9 pages of the same advice and yet despite this, we're still getting claims that people are dismissing violence, expecting children to put up with violence.

Really it's as simple as:

1. A child in school has behaved violently to other children
2. Any parents who are understandably concerned about this need to raise the issue with school and ask what the school is doing to safeguard all children. If this means formally complaining about safeguarding failures then that's totally the right thing to do because school have a duty to ensure all children are safe.

That's it. Nothing more. No the child is like an animal. No information about the child's home life. No decision that the child should be in specialist schools, home educated etc (which frequently comes from people with no experience working with vulnerable children but think that somewhere else is obviously the answer). No whipping up claims that it could be A&E or the school having a situation in case heads are banged etc. All of that stuff is nothing more than adults being unpleasant about a vulnerable child. It's not needed.

@Londongirl86 Actually I’m hugely empathetic and I have a younger brother with SEN who was treated badly by others in his mainstream school. He was made fun of for how he spoke, the extra help he needed, and even for being adopted. As they got older, thankfully some of the kids learned the error of their ways and became much kinder as they got to know him and saw how funny he is. He wasn’t violent, or disruptive, but he WAS different.

I never said your child should be beaten up daily. But your suggestion that this child with additional needs should just be placed elsewhere isnt the solution. Everyone on this thread practically has suggested raising it as a safeguarding issue and pushing the school for support and answers. Have you done that?

You can’t come onto AIBU, and kick off at everyone who disagrees with you and accuse people of only seeing one side when you are also.

@OrangeSlices998 have I seen one side? I'm pretty sure I was very reasonable and understanding of this little girls situation. I have not once been cruel to her. I have said I sympathize with her and feel she deserves more. Which she does. I'm not disagreeing with anything apart from Lola calling me a gossip. I stand by thinking this school does not have the correct support for her. She needs one on one to protect her and others from her outbursts. I don't have a problem with children with problems. I would help them if I could. But I can't.

My issue has always been that she's hurting my girl and my friends kids that i also love. They are all sensitive kind shy kids who have just gone into a setting away from us for the first time. They will continue to be her victims until she is removed from the situation or constantly monitored. One day she will hurt someone enough to need medical care. She will. It will probably traumatise that child for life when they are hit by a chair or knocked on their face.

I have took the advice. I will be having words Mondays. I am keeping track. I also have already spoke to the teacher.

I'm done on this thread now. You clearly don't understand where I'm coming from as I have never gossiped or said anything unkind about this child.

The problem with home schooling a child with a traumatic history is that for them to be able to integrate successfully into society and not have issues following them into adulthood they need to learn how to successful cope and function as a larger body of peers. Her behaviour isnt unusual, it's just unusual for her age, as you often find in reception child with violent behaviours (for example my best friends lo is currently in a class with a lo who loves to bite) but for whatever reason this poor girl has not had the appropriate social influence and role model to have learnt appropriate behaviour and may potentially be copying behaviour she has grown up seeing and being exposed to. Therefore the most beneficial place for her to be is mainstream as it will allow her to learn appropriate behaviour and function as a peer group, which is more ghen possible if the appropriate support and under standing is given. And there is the issue, because with the tory cuts of schools actually putting the support necessary in place is incredibly difficult.
But home schooling and therefore limiting access with peers or going to a specilist school if there are no additional learning disabilities, you are stopping the child having appropriate socialisation and learning healthy behaviours which will allow her to learn to behave appropriately. That I feel is why people are getting so upset by the suggestion of home schooling as in a way it unintentionally suggests your childs future is worth more then this poor childs is (as without appropriate support and interaction with peers she will be unable to learn appropriate and healthy behaviours).

Hope that helps to put things in perspective a bit.

The problem is that the OP and the other parents whose children are being bullied by this girl don't know her as she's an older child in the school. So all they see is their child coming home very upset about it and probably afraid to go to school in the morning. It's hardly surprising that they're not exactly sympathetic.

It would be an entirely different matter if this was about a child in the same class as the OP's DD and the question was whether she would be U if she didn't invite the other girl to her DD's party, and she would be the only child left out. That isn't what's happening at all. The child isn't being excluded from anything. There has been a lot of projection going on.

The problem really is the fact that it's common knowledge that the girl is 'looked after' because it obviously is a red herring

@Londongirl86 “I'm done on this thread now. You clearly don't understand where I'm coming from as I have never gossiped or said anything unkind about this child.”

You’ve just added things onto the end there that I never said. And I think you may not understand how this forum works - it’s a discussion, not you looking for people just to agree with you and validate your experience or opinion!

I do hope the school respond how you want them to, and there is a good outcome for your DD and the girl involved.

I'm the mum of a child like this. He is a adopted and suffered terrible neglect and abuse until he was 4.

Most days he hurts someone or does something- it's a nightmare and I'm wracked with anxiety all day long about what he might do. I have asked for help from the LA and school but they don't have the funding necessary to actually put anything long term in to help. We have had counselling, he's done emotion regulation classes and OT.

I ask for him to be kept in at lunch or be closely supervised in the playground and they just let him out in the playground because they have no one available. I have offered to collect him to eat at home but they don't want to allow it. There is no money for 1:1 whatsoever. We are applying for an EHCP but he is academically fine so we are unlikely to get it. I dread the school run and avoid it wherever possible. He is in Year 6 now and when he goes to secondary I can only imagine what is going to happen.

LAC are likely to suffer from lots of the same kind of problems but there is no provision for them for schooling. I wish he could go to a special school but he is not "bad enough". It's isolating being the parent of the "naughty" child- especially when you are trying so hard parent them to try to heal and it seems like you are failing.

You and the other parents are not wrong to want to protect your children. I would be exactly the same and tell them to "keep away". This feeds into our problem though as all he wants is to feel included and wanted and in order to get some attention he'll be silly and end up hurting someone.

I just wanted to put across the other side as often people think children who act like this come from homes where the parents don't care which isn't always true.

It's not actually unkind to suggest homeschooling as an option. As an adoptive parent, I'm on forums for parents dealing with very challenging behaviours and sometimes they do decide that homeschooling is the only option. It's not being cruel suggesting that it might be better for the looked after child herself. She can't be happy if she's constantly lashing out. My DD1 does it when she's overwhelmed and can't cope with her emotions. (I never blame her when she lashes out, it's the responsibility of the adults in her life to help her cope.)

It's irrelevant, though, because looked after children are required to be in mainstream school.

so you don't think that parents should be thinking along the lines of when she pushes someone and they bleed. Because one day one of them will need medical treatment. When she pushes them and they hit their heads. Or she kicks them in the face instead of their backs.
As I have said so many times, I think parents should be contacting the school raising the issues and asking the school to outline how they are going to safeguard all children.
I think the parents should be totally willing to launch formal complaints procedures if need be.

I don't see the point in sitting around saying but what if... What if... a&e... Etc

It's like you think that won't happen because a child's vunerable.
I haven't said that.
I have categorically stated school has a safeguarding duty to ALL children and should be held to account.

I just don't believe adults should be comparing a vulnerable child to an animal and trying to dress it up as just having an opinion
There is nothing insulting about home schooling a child who gets overwhelmed and lashes out..
There's nothing insulting about the adults in a child's life making an informed decision about the best educational provision for that child and their needs.

It is insulting for adults who have nothing to do with a child, don't know their full picture, aren't appropriately trained and experienced to decide that a child should be home schooled or in a specialist school when their "opinion" comes from their own ignorance without any relevant experience.
There are parents of kids with SEND needs and other needs who are essentially bullied into off rolling their children under the guise that "maybe home ed would be best" or illegal exclusions. There are schools up and down the country dealing with parents who instead of raising valid issue around safeguarding have to deal with parents weighing in with what they think should happen to specific children and so on

It's really not that difficult to focus appropriate and reasonable complaints in the appropriate manner and keep out everything else.

@cindylouwhosplaits

Thank you for your message. Bless him. That's horrible he had such a tough life and so wonderful of you to give him the life he deserves.

I understand your points I really do. I'm not judging this girl or her parents. I'm annoyed that the school are not watching her as this shouldn't be happening. I am genuinely concerned for my child as she is one of her targets and she is so young to be at risk like this.

I can only imagine how you feel judged and alone. You really shouldnt. I'd never want to make anyone feel bad as children can have various things wrong or simply just have a fiery personality. My DD has her own midn despite how I've raised her. It's incredibly sad that children are failed like this. The only bit of attitude ive had on this thread is people accusing me of gossiping about this girl. I never would of mentioned her it just happened that the kids were telling a group of us about it and we all heard and were in the same boat.

When I say about home school, special schools people are thinking I'm saying to banish her from socialising. But that's not it. To me there's many options and home school was just one suggestion. There's things like shorter days, supervison, support teachers, staying in with a friend at lunch, being kept in until behaviour has improved, home school until there's a TA available for her. I know alot of things come down to money and I have read and learnt lots of things today about the money side of it. I really did not mean to cause any offence. I hope your little boy grows up to be a happy young man who can find a passion he loves. Sending you my love it's a good job there are kind people like you x

@cindylouwhosplaits I'm so sorry you and your DS are coping with this. It's horrible when you feel that you're banging your head against a brick wall for your child.

My DD1 is also considered too academically capable to heed an EHCP and I worry about her when she starts secondary school (she's also in year 6). What helps her is that she has hearing aids, which can be seen and they understand.

Thankfully for us, she withdraws when in school and doesn't display behavioural issues there. She doesn't cope really as she can't make friends and annoys her younger sister and her friends but she doesn't cause the staff any problems.

My son has just started school and if this was happening to him I would be extremely angry

If they can't stop my child being hurt in playground then I would be demanding they remove the offending child from the playground. If this means being kept in at breaks so be it.

Ultimately you can't have kids being subjected to violence at school that's horrendous.
I would be raging is I was you OP.

@Londongirl86

Thank you for your message. I appreciate it.

I think it's completely normal to know in your friendship group what's been going on in school and of course it's normal to discuss it together.

I have actually been on your side of the coin with my younger child who had a LAC in her class last year with exactly the same behaviour as the child you describe. She was drawn to my daughter like a magnet (I often find mine recognise other trauma survivors when we're on holiday etc) and my child was black and blue and getting attacked every day. Despite me understanding completely why and making efforts to make the child welcome and have her for play dates etc of course I had to complain about it. My child is my priority. (Her name doesn't begin with C does it?)

I am seriously considering homeschool and I do think for a lot of traumatised children it is better- there are opportunities to socialise and plenty of events. My problem is my son loves school and doesn't want to stay at home.

The more incidents that are reported and recorded in writing, the more likely the child is to have interventions put in place (in my experience) so please do keep making a nuisance of yourself to keep your child safe.

Thankfully none of my children are violent but the youngest has been diagnosed as autistic and I strongly suspect the middle child is autistic and adhd. The reality is the services are so widely stretched it is a 2 YEAR waiting list for CAHMS.

My youngest went under paediatrician so was Diagnosed in just 6 months. Without a diagnosis it is near impossible to get specialist schooling or ECHP so put simply the finding is not there to deal with the poor girls issues. It can potentially be another couple of years until she can access specialist schooling in which case the damage to her may already be done.

Basically to bump a child up the list they need to be suicidal.

It is a horrifying situation to be in but I do feel fo you no child should feel unsafe at school.