Children of working mothers are more likely to mug you

[chomalungma]

I know. It was 13 years ago. It's probably out of context. Sometimes you say things that rattle a few cages.

But it all builds a picture of our current Prime Minister, Boris Johnson.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/04/boris-johnson-claimed-children-of-working-mothers-more-likely-to-mug-you

"“In the last 30 years an ever-growing proportion of British women have been ‘incentivised’ or socially gestapoed into the workplace, on what seems to me to be the dubious assumption that the harder a woman works the happier she will be, when I am not sure that is true of women or anyone else,” he wrote.

In the book, published before he became mayor of London, Johnson said an increasing number of female graduates tended to pair up with male graduates – a process known by economists as “assortative mating” – and that they then pool their advantages.

“The result is that in families on lower incomes the women have absolutely no choice but to work, often with adverse consequences for family life and society as a whole – in that unloved and undisciplined children are more likely to become hoodies, Neets [not in education, employment or training] and mug you on the street corner."

AIBU to think that his articles from the past reveal much about his views on women, Muslims, LGBT people....

Not necessarily, we had 3 children and paid for childcare. And this was pre child tax credits and free hours too. At least nowadays the period of paying full fees is relatively short. Not sure I’d have expected free childcare anyway, even if the grandparents had been nearby. It’s a massive commitment. I agree that if you’re low waged it’s a lot harder which is why I’d always encourage my dd and ds to aim for work which enables them choices

Women don't need to make excuses to have a job - men are never expected to explain why they work, so why should we

Really...I think the opposite. Women have to explain why they don't work

It's really not true. Men are expected to work and women are still expected to be the main care-givers. That doesn't mean women can't work PT but certainly when ds was small, I was not accepted by the other mothers (at a state infant school) because I worked FT. How dare I earn more than my husband and be the main breadwinner? They accepted two other mums working FT (how kind of them) because one was a widow and the other a single parent so they didn't really have any choice other than to work. But I was the only one with a husband/partner who worked FT - a few worked PT but that was ok.

gogreen we have no help from grandparents for day to day childcare and we most certainly aren't 'screwed'. We managed with full time nursery and flexible jobs.

That's fucked up in so many ways Blaue

Of course everyone has particular individual strengths to play to but it’s ridiculous to suggest that men and women are poles apart in what they want their life styles to be

Couldn't agree more. But the 'standard' societal expectations in 2019 are that the man is the main breadwinner and that the woman is the main caregiver and also works part time alongside that. So women who don't work are criticised and women who work too much are criticised. They then start criticising each other .

The woman is expected to be in charge of the house house admin and often makes lists for her DH so he can help. He is 'good' because he helps but if the dc forget their forest schools kit it's obviously her fault. She mustn't try to have it all because that is a recipe for disaster but no one ever says that to a man. I agree to a point re men not having the same freedom to stay at home because of the expectations but the ones that do will still be congratulated for it by many as being a wonderful husband/ father.

Obviously there is loads to pick apart in the above but it's my own observation of people I know and how people think. It doesn't reflect how our house works but people frequently comment about how amazing DH is and how I don't know I'm born.

The thing that is also often overlooked is that working part time can be really really hard if everyone else is full time and you aren't available for meetings/ are just basically doing the same job as everyone else in less time. Everyone thinks it sounds wonderful but I hated working part time personally. It was the worst of both worlds.

I think the phrase ‘having it all’ is toxic and I wish it had never come about because there’s a danger it translates into ‘trying to be and do absolutely everything.’

I much prefer to think of ‘having a balanced life’ - and that goes for women and men, and not just parents either; surely it’s good for everyone whether single, partnered, child free or a parent to live a balanced life.

Of course there are many different ways to live a balanced life. For dh and I it’s certainly meant sharing earning/ caring/ home responsibilities because that way we each get to enjoy each part and use our skills. I agree with a lot of what you say about societal expectations @Teateaandmoretea but I honestly believe things are better in 2019 than at any previous time in history. I feel sorry for my parents’ generation because my mum had not choice but to give up work, even though she was a bright capable woman because regulated day care/ nurseries etc did not exist. But at least she had it better than my grandmother (a teacher) who had to be given permission by the school governing board to remain in her job when she got married This was before she was even thinking about having kids!

We found it challenging 20 + years ago to balance our roles because legislation was still woefully inadequate - no paternity leave for example - but we were determined to keep things as balanced as possible, because after all we both chose to have children, we both loved them equally and were both capable of caring for them as well as working. If we were having kids now, I’d jump at the chance to use shared parental leave which I think is brilliant for children and their parents.

Of course it will be great for things to get even better, and id love it if my ds becomes a dad and no one bats an eyelid if he takes on home and caring responsibilities as well as earning, and vice versa for my dd. There’s always scope for things to get better.

Society is made up of individuals and the more that individuals challenge the stereotypical assumptions the better. I said upthread, historic gender stereotype roles serve no one well, parents or children; far better to see people as people first and foremost.

I think you can never see people as people in this until medical advances have allowed men to be pregnant and have babies. That is a biological sex difference that has nothing to do with stereotypes or gender. Women need time to recover from the upheaval of childbirth and breastfeeding also contributes to women initially being the main primary carer and taking time out of work. This start is unhelpful re setting the scene for later on. Particularly where women have more than one child close together as the time as this being the norm is longer.

All the 'women are more nurturing' stuff is bollocks and I agree with you there but I don't agree we can just view the whole thing as 'people' for the reasons above.

And yes things are getting better, but it is a gradual process.

I might get flamed and I know I'm probably very old fashioned in my views, but I think the death of the housewife has on the whole been a negative thing for society.

that would be a flame from me. This attitude can get to fuck. Want a parent at home? the father can do it.

When i was younger my mum (full time worker) earned more than my dad at one point. But she couldn't have her own bank account without his countersignature, couldn't have the mortgage in her name etc etc etc

Anyone who wants to get back to that is perfectly free to be a surrendered wife and get on with it. The rest of us will be over here enjoying our (nearly) equal rights.

@brefugee he? I assume hasn't got flamed because it is such an utterly ridiculous comment no one can even be bothered to respond.

Let's leave those 'good old days' in the past says anyone with any critical thinking skills.

@Teateaandmoretea yes there is a biological sex difference of course. But aside from actually giving birth and feeding directly from the breast there is nothing that fathers can’t do. And looking at the vast majority of cases, recovery from birth is well within the generous maternity leave entitlement and bf can continue for as long as is chosen and is not dependent on being at home all the time (I actually continued bf long after returning to work when Dd was 3 months old but that’s another story! Besides, bf rates have a lot more to do with socio economic factors than whether a mum is working or not.)

Of course no doubt someone will be along in a moment to say they had terrible birth injuries and needed over a year to recover but this would be exceptional. I’m talking about most cases.

I think the reality is, as you say, that patterns are established early on: if a mum is taking 9 or 12 months ML and by default doing a lot of the home related stuff during that time then if you’re not careful several years down the line that’s become the norm. You see posts regularly here from mums complaining that dad just goes to work, comes home and does nothing with the kids or housework, and equally there are dads who feel sidelined and ‘not good enough’ to do child or household tasks ‘properly’ and then it’s an increasing cycle isn’t it. And years down the line you see professional women whose kids are teenagers, or even adults away at uni or left home and mum is still doing most of the housework and probably doing a part time job for part time wages and part time pension. It’s not hard to see how these patterns evolve and before you know it years have passed and it’s difficult to break them.
I agree with you that in 2019 a couple still have to make a deliberate effort not to slide into roles which society endorses. The biological aspect is really very short lived in the scheme of things- it’s societal factors which influence the much larger phase of child rearing

I am not convinced that men do have the same choice as women to stay at home. I think traditionally male employers are far less open to flexible working requests and I have several friends who were horrified when their husbands suggested that they stay at home whilst friend worked full time or even part time.

well that would be the experience of a lot of people in places like the UK but not, as has PP mentioned, in places like the Netherlands. Or Germany. In fact my DC are at uni now so it's not too long ago that they were born, and my OH took the 2nd half of our parental leave for #2 because I was climbing the walls after 3 years of SAHPness and it wasn't doing our family any good. (not in UK)

So do something about the odd situation in the UK and put your X in the right place on Friday. Vote for parties (I am assuming there are some) who are offering flexible working for people (not just with children, for everyone). And we should all do our bit by raising our sons and daughters not to accept the idiotic presenteeim and overwork culture that has arrived.