Children of working mothers are more likely to mug you

[chomalungma]

I know. It was 13 years ago. It's probably out of context. Sometimes you say things that rattle a few cages.

But it all builds a picture of our current Prime Minister, Boris Johnson.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/04/boris-johnson-claimed-children-of-working-mothers-more-likely-to-mug-you

"“In the last 30 years an ever-growing proportion of British women have been ‘incentivised’ or socially gestapoed into the workplace, on what seems to me to be the dubious assumption that the harder a woman works the happier she will be, when I am not sure that is true of women or anyone else,” he wrote.

In the book, published before he became mayor of London, Johnson said an increasing number of female graduates tended to pair up with male graduates – a process known by economists as “assortative mating” – and that they then pool their advantages.

“The result is that in families on lower incomes the women have absolutely no choice but to work, often with adverse consequences for family life and society as a whole – in that unloved and undisciplined children are more likely to become hoodies, Neets [not in education, employment or training] and mug you on the street corner."

AIBU to think that his articles from the past reveal much about his views on women, Muslims, LGBT people....

We don't need a 40 hour week

Absolutely. We should be working less hours not more thanks to computers and technology.

When I was working most jobs were 9-5. There's very few of these anymore. You're lucky to get 9-5.30. I saw a bog standard admin job being advertised recently...12 hours a day. Totally unnecessary.

formerbabe we are one of those families who could live off one salary. Our choice to work has nothing to do with greed. We both have jobs we love, have worked hard to achieve and are useful and valuable to society.
Working for money isn't the only reason people work. My job is part of my identity.

@cukooboo
I think we genuinely have very different life experiences and social circles as your examples just doesn't echo what I see and experience.

Most people I know are not able to WFH regularly (teachers, doctors, call centre operatives, shop workers and some office workers) and if the higher earner was to work the pattern you describe (4 days on and 1 off) they would often need to compress their hours so they don't lose any pay which would mean they couldn't do the school run on their working days. Not to mention I live in an area where lots of people have longer commutes so they would either get to work ridiculously late or leave very early to get to school in time.

I don't think it should be ignored but that doesn't mean there can't be conversations about why it generally seems to be women who want to do more of the childcare/domestic work? And why men seem to have the skills to thrive at work
I agree with this.

Also formerbabe, so what if a couple want to both work and have more material things than you feel you need? It may not be your way of doing things (nor mine) but why not trust couples to live their lives the way they choose. Provided their children are safe and loved then what business is it of yours?
You sound terribly over- invested in what other couples do and how they choose to raise their children.

The only thing that matters is that children are raised well... and that can be done in a million different ways and can happen (or not) whether the parents work.

@CosmoK

And I think it's preferable for a parent to be at home. I was looked after briefly by my sahm and then my dad after she died and various nannies. In my experience, a mum usually makes a better carer but either way, whatever.

Fact is, if you choose to work and don't do it because you need the money, what you are effectively saying is you prefer working to child rearing, which is fine, but own it and stop denying it.

Also formerbabe, so what if a couple want to both work and have more material things than you feel you need? It may not be your way of doing things (nor mine) but why not trust couples to live their lives the way they choose. Provided their children are safe and loved then what business is it of yours?

It's not but I can have an opinion.

Like my sil, big family, lots of juggling and stress... could easily afford to sah and see more of her children but prefers to have flash cars and designer clothes. Doesn't impact me but I still can have an opinion that it's a sad state of affairs and odd priorities.

I think we genuinely have very different life experiences and social circles as your examples just doesn't echo what I see and experience.

We do & likewise your examples don't echo what I see. 95% of my friends work p/t & they have jobs such as teachers, police, GPs, surgeons, solicitors, officey jobs in finance & HR. The vast majority of their partners work in similar roles, plus IT, accountancy, analysts etc & they have flexibility. The only ones who don't are a barrister & someone who travels a lot.

A lot of younger tech companies are big on this culture & younger generations see it more as a requirement (I'm in my 30s). My younger brother handed in his notice in as he wanted to move to Spain for 6 months (girlfriend) & his company asked him to stay on but work remotely, tech stuff. One of DHs assistant moved back to France last yr and works remotely, coming back once every 4-6 weeks for a London meeting. The world of work is changing.

No formerbabe I'm not saying that at all. You do realise that working parents are still raising their children don't you? We just do it differently.
It is possible to have a job you love without it detracting from the love you have for your child. Our DS has reaped many benefits from us working and I'm not just taking about money.

I have a job which is incredibly flexible - as does DH. We've both turned down jobs that wouldn't work for our family life.
My mum stayed a home and resented the fact she didn't have a career and that showed at times.

Fact is, if you choose to work and don't do it because you need the money, what you are effectively saying is you prefer working to child rearing, which is fine, but own it and stop denying it.

I definitely prefer the balance of working combined with child rearing as opposed to child rearing alone. I'm happy to own it, I just think that makes me less of a mother.

Oh and formerbabe that was a pretty dickish post. I hope you own that.

I know lots of couples who could live very comfortably on one salary yet we live in a greedy society where material things are more important than time and family

We could live off one salary. However I value ...

As much stability as is humanly possible to provide for my children (two incomes are more shock proof than one).

My children not missing out on educational/life experiences due to money.

To give my children as good a financial start as I can (uni paid for, help with deposits for first homes).

My own financial security. I rely on no one but myself to pay my way.

A pension. See above.

We have a great family life, I work four days, DH is very flexible.

People make different choices, are coming from different experiences, but to smear all those who work more than they strictly need to to pay basic bills as ‘greedy’ is offensive and ignorant.

ever.

‘Fact is, if you choose to work and don't do it because you need the money, what you are effectively saying is you prefer working to child rearing, which is fine, but own it and stop denying it.’

Christ you have a terrible way of thinking. If I’m being charitable then perhaps it’s down to your childhood which you’ve admitted yourself wasnt good. The alternative is that you’re just plain nasty.

I’m sure you won’t be able to get your head around it, but I don’t ‘prefer work to child rearing.’ I had the choice of raising my children without working, or raising them while working too. I chose the latter, because my children were happy and thriving and that is what matters. As I’ve no doubt they would have done if I’d stayed home.

Do you think men ‘prefer work’ too? Actually that’s a rhetorical question- your opinions really are vile and not worth hearing

@formerbabe you seem incredibly bitter

I've thought myself that the prevailing expectation that a mother essentially outsources being a parent to "childcare" in order to work herself isn't a good thing. What impact will that have on the next generation - I doubt it will be a good one. So I don't entirely disagree with what Johnson said in 2006.

I do however note that during his political career since then, Boris Johnson has backed a party and policies that perpetuate that expectation. Shows that he really doesn't give a damn about low-income families.

See men are allowed to ‘prefer working’. And when they work, it’s to do important things like provide for the family. They don’t work because they’re ‘greedy’ and ‘materialistic’

@cukooboo
I'm early 30s too so I've not got outdated ideas of work and have pretty wide social circle where I do know lots of people that work PT but their partner (vast majority of times the main breadwinner) always works FT and experiences the barriers to working flexibly that I describe in my post. The PTers are almost SAHM-lites as they take on the vast majority of the responsibilities related to the children and will use family support or external childcare/school to cover the time when they're at work. Most of them are very much on the "mum track" at work and have missed out on promotions etc because of their working hours and family commitments (e.g. they are most likely to take time off if child is sick). They tend to work locally to increase their availability and therefore receive a smaller wage than their partner who can access London with a bigger commute.

I apologise as my earlier post didn't make it clear that the barriers I was talking about in terms of flexible working were associated with the main earner reducing their working hours in order to achieve more balance at home. I didn't mean to imply that working PT was impossible.

I meant people younger than 30s have a higher expectation of flexible/remote working as my siblings are younger than me.

I live in SW London so there's less of an issue with a commute for most people I know. I use family on both sides to help & external childcare & school to help. In terms of covering sickness we share it & I have the flexibility to not work Monday because child is sick so do a Tuesday instead. DHs work actively encourage staff to wfh but he prefers the 2 computers set up at work. I changed careers after DC1 & have been in my current role 1.5 yrs & had 2 promotions. However I work really hard on the days I do work & get paid reasonably well. Realistically I will need to work another day to move up to the next stage but I'm holding out for them to offer me more money & just want to wait till DC2 is a little older (just turned 3).

make it clear that the barriers I was talking about in terms of flexible working were associated with the main earner reducing their working hours in order to achieve more balance at home

I get this & when I talk about my ideal of increasing days & DH dropping his I will need to earn more.

Today 11:32 safariboot

’I've thought myself that the prevailing expectation that a mother essentially outsources being a parent to "childcare" in order to work herself isn't a good thing. What impact will that have on the next generation - I doubt it will be a good one.‘

You make it sound like something new!
My kids are now adults. They are fine. As are the vast majority of their peers, regardless of whether their mums worked or not.

There are a few peers they grew up with who sadly arent fine, who’ve ‘gone off the rails’ for want of a better phrase, got involved with anti social, negative behaviour, underachieved at school etc

There is absolutely no correlation between those peers and having two parents in work!

I work in tech, admitedly in London, and it's very, very normal for people to work at least one day from home or be based from home like myself. People often leave early to go and watch sports day or whatever, and work remotely on the train, after the event, in the evening etc. There is obviously a give and take attitude and you have to be fairly senior and be provided to work a bit out of house when needed, but it is very normal now. Most couples I know where both are professionals that work FT have at least 2/3 days where one parent is working from home and can do school pickups and drop offs. My primary school children's school is at least 50/50 SAHMs and other women/professional Dads at pickup time these days. The days of 8-6 at your desk, even if you had little to do, having to hide the fact that you had kids that I experienced in the 90/00s has largely gone from what I see, at least in big companies. pretty much everyone I know works flexibly to some degree now.

Ok this is a very middle class professional centric experience, as others have said. But the point is, it's becoming more common and is more workabe than it used to be. I get that it's different for nurses, doctors, teachers, bus drivers, but I think there is the expectation that some of this attitude will filter down into those jobs, to an extent. Or as others have said, the possibility of 4 day weeks. People don't generally work in supermarkets and care homes full time anymore, they take shifts and part time work according to their financial need.

The housewife at home, man out earning the money model that some of you are idealizing just seems horribly old-fashioned to me. I accept it's personal choice and if you have a high earning husband, then fair enough. But it's also dangerous as it is the women that get shafted when that husband fucks off to start a new family with a younger woman (or dies) and leaves the woman with little ability to support herself or her family after years of not working.

Bottom line is: be secure in your own decisions that they are right for your own circumstances and don’t apply them to anyone else’s.

I couldn’t give two hoots whether other parents work or not. And in fact the only sneering I’ve seen here is from the likes of formerbabe who clearly has an issue with mothers who combine child rearing with working.

Just found this stat

Up to one in four people in some London boroughs has given up the traditional nine-to-five in favour of working from home, according to new research. Across the UK there are more than four million people working from home, or 14 per cent of the working population, according to the study by insurance company Aviva.

@cukooboo
That article suggests a very strong geographical bias towards London. I wonder what the national average (which is already pretty low at 14%) would be if you discounted London.

But I'm in London & it's fairly common here so that's my experience. I'm not sure why your experience is more valid than mine?
Plus that's just statistics for working from home, I'm sure a pretty high % also has flexi hours.

@Bumpitybumper you said lots of your circle commute to London for their jobs. Not one of them has the opportunity to work flexi hours or remotely ever? Or is it that the commute is more of a barrier?

I definitely prefer the balance of working combined with child rearing as opposed to child rearing alone. I'm happy to own it, I just think that makes me less of a mother

I presume you meant doesn't make you less of a mother? If so I agree entirely!

I am also aware that raising two daughters I'm a role model for them. I want to model that it's worthwhile working hard at school and getting a good education - then it makes it more possible to have a good life balance, (not have to flog your guts out at work and never be around otherwise and actually do hobbies and other interesting stuff) and to be financially independent.

I was always ambitious - to get a good balance in life, not to get to the top with any semblance of personal, social, family life ruined.

Ha ha @Juliette20 the thread has made me turn on myself!