Children of working mothers are more likely to mug you

[chomalungma]

I know. It was 13 years ago. It's probably out of context. Sometimes you say things that rattle a few cages.

But it all builds a picture of our current Prime Minister, Boris Johnson.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/04/boris-johnson-claimed-children-of-working-mothers-more-likely-to-mug-you

"“In the last 30 years an ever-growing proportion of British women have been ‘incentivised’ or socially gestapoed into the workplace, on what seems to me to be the dubious assumption that the harder a woman works the happier she will be, when I am not sure that is true of women or anyone else,” he wrote.

In the book, published before he became mayor of London, Johnson said an increasing number of female graduates tended to pair up with male graduates – a process known by economists as “assortative mating” – and that they then pool their advantages.

“The result is that in families on lower incomes the women have absolutely no choice but to work, often with adverse consequences for family life and society as a whole – in that unloved and undisciplined children are more likely to become hoodies, Neets [not in education, employment or training] and mug you on the street corner."

AIBU to think that his articles from the past reveal much about his views on women, Muslims, LGBT people....

Yes, for many years I was in work for 9.30, not 9, along with all the hungover men turning up, the world didnt end. Now I control my own schedule.

I think what some people are missing that, while the vast majority of women work because they have to to pay the mortgage, some other are also doing it for the benefit of their mental health. This directly benefits their children of course.

Anyway, this is a pointless debate that regularly and pointlessly goes round on Mumsnet, albeit without the initial unveiled vitriol. Most reasonable people accept that there are many different ways to be a mother, or indeed parent, and many ways to conduct your life and still produce well balance adults at the end of it.

And with that I'm off out with my friends, tragically leaving my children to watch tv, eat pizza and fart on the sofa with their father, a fate worse than death for some but much enjoyed by them. I'm a terrible mother, I know!

Women don't need to make excuses to have a job - men are never expected to explain why they work, so why should we?

Women don't need to make excuses to have a job - men are never expected to explain why they work, so why should we?

Really...I think the opposite. Women have to explain why they don't work.

I think women who work find themselves feeling attacked and like they have to justify it, and women who don't work, equally find themselves feeling attacked and they have to justify it.

Often the most bitter and vocal critics of either, is other women. It's sad really.

Women have to explain why they don't work.

Me saying that personally I prefer to work is not the same as judging those that don't.

I think women who work find themselves feeling attacked and like they have to justify it, and women who don't work, equally find themselves feeling attacked and they have to justify it

This. We can't fucking win either way.

You've still not answered my earlier question formerbabe.
Do you apply the same criteria to mens work choices

If a couple both work and could live on one salary comfortably, then either way, it seems odd to me that both would work and cause unnecessary stress to their family. So yeah, mum or dad, it's irrelevant. I think a parent at home full time is the best situation for children, even if it isnt the best situation for the parent. As someone who was brought up by their dad, I'd say mums are a much better choice to be number one carer but that's just my experience.

That's your experience, and opinions formerbabe. You live by those, but perhaps you should be more open to the idea that others have different opinions, experiences, are different people, with different situations, personalities, resources, and different children.

There is no one true way to be a good parent. There are many. Evidenced by the many different ways in which parents bring up great kids.

I would also suggest the type of work available outside of London tends to be different and lends itself less to WFH

Well yes the only employers are Asda and Maccy D's.

If a couple both work and could live on one salary comfortably, then either way, it seems odd to me that both would work and cause unnecessary stress to their family. So yeah, mum or dad, it's irrelevant.

Well for one thing I want to have a decent retirement, if I give up work for years even though I don't want to I'd have a terrible pension...! I think it's odd that educated people would be sahp's and want to scrape by. But anyone who says that on this thread is seemingly flamed. Both of our jobs are flexible enough, DH's more than mine. We all have a good life, children as they get older like to live in a family with plenty of money for activities, holidays etc. What is the point in sitting at home all day on my own while the DC are at school?

But there is no stress in our lives formerbabe We've got a great life which involves a great deal of family time.

Lol at the idea work outside of London isn't WFH friendly 🤣

I think it's odd that educated people would be sahp's and want to scrape by

I said live comfortably not scrape by.

I think it's odd that educated people would be sahp's and want to scrape by. . . What is the point in sitting at home all day on my own while the DC are at school?

See this is the kind of thing that can make SAHP's feel defensive and judged. Once again, it may not be your cup of tea, you might not see the point, but for others, in terms of their situation, resources, and experiences, it might make perfect sense, even factoring in the financial sacrifice - which most SAHP's are highly conscious of!

But @formerbabe you obviously think that working is only about money. For many people including myself that's just one advantage.

I am a better person in terms of more structured & organised when I have the routine of work (both maternity leaves were around 14 months). I also find that when I'm at work I can think more clearly about things & plan accordingly. I also enjoy the social
aspect of work. I recognise that not everyone is the same & that's fine. I do what works for me & my family.

Motherhood is pretty common - yes obviously.
Not unique or sacred - it is for their children

Hmmm, not sure DD's experience of 'motherhood' with her birth mother was all that 'sacred', sadly.

There is no one true way to be a good parent. There are many. Evidenced by the many different ways in which parents bring up great kids.

^ this

Well I had two mothers and one didn't want me,and the other was pretty shit. It was my dad that played with me and read me stories, he taught me how to read and write,he attended the parent teacher meetings or came in when i was in trouble.

I am a better person in terms of more structured & organised when I have the routine of work (both maternity leaves were around 14 months). I also find that when I'm at work I can think more clearly about things & plan accordingly. I also enjoy the social
aspect of work

All those advantages you gave were about you and what is best for you.

All those advantages you gave were about you and what is best for you

Yes, not all of us want to be wholly martyred on the self-sacrificial altar of motherhood.

These things can also be beneficial to the child - being structured, organised, clear thinking and planning, as well as being happy in one's social life. It can make for a far more balanced, happy, and functioning person. Which can make for a better parent in terms of what and how they give to their child.

@Teateaandmoretea
Well yes the only employers are Asda and Maccy D's
No need for the sarcasm. It's pretty well accepted that London is different than the rest of the UK in terms of employment and the variety of jobs available. It's a nonsense to pretend that there isn't a geographical element to working patterns as highlighted by the article referenced earlier that noted that areas of London had much higher levels of WFH than the national average. As someone that lives outside of London, I think it's vital that this is acknowledged and people's realities from different parts of the UK are understood.

Do you apply the same criteria to mens work choices

Why assume men always get a choice. When / If it comes down to one person stopping work I can guarantee a lot of women don't say you stop even though you earn more.
It's always that the dh could earn more.
If you give up, of course he'll always earn more.
Find a man who treats your work potential as equal to his.

@mbosnz has it, it's really not that hard to comprehend. I'm happier, a better me, a better person & a better parent. I mentioned earlier that the Netherlands has really high ratings for children's & teenagers wellbeing. It's not a coincidence that Dutch parents are happier too.

@formerbabe I would be far more concerned about the anger & bitterness & I'm sure some hurt regarding your mother you carry around with you as I think that's much more of a malign influence on your children regardless if you work or not.

Well our kids don't come out too happy compared to most other countries. Society is obviously doing something wrong somewhere.

Formerbabe you sound incredibly resentful.

I didn’t need to work when my children were small. I worked for a whole array of reasons ... because I enjoyed it, it was intellectually challenging, socially useful and yes, the salary and pension too. It didn’t cause stress for our family. Yes it was a busy life, but busyness isn’t the same thing as stress. And anyway, there can be some aspects of not working that could be stressful anyway, so it’s not as simple as work= stress and not working = no stress. I didn’t work because I ‘preferred working to looking after my children’ and in fact I know no WOHP who does- that’s just a vicious comment you made upthread.

You also seem to have something of the martyr about you... your comments about it being ‘better for the children’ to have a parent at home even if it’s not easier for the parent.

I also find your posts quite contradictory- you’ve pulled apart other people’s posts when they describe how they manage their commute and the school run and complained that it wouldn’t work for you but quite frankly that’s irrelevant because you don’t want to work anyway- you’ve made that clear.

I haven’t seen any WOHM on here attacking SAHM... we’ve simply pointed out that we are happy working and we have happy children too. That’s all that matters. If I’d stayed home with my kids I’m sure they’d be happy too. It’s not an either/ or situation.

You on the other hand have a massive problem with women (though not men!) working. You and Boris both...

@Acciocats
i haven’t seen any WOHM on here attacking SAHM
Are you being serious? Posters have suggested that SAHMs don't need to be properly educated, that we represent a backward step for equality and that we are more easily fulfilled (and maybe a little bit more simple) than WOHPs. These comments may well reflect their genuinely held views and values but can't you see that this is more than a little bit insulting to SAHMs?

I think @formerbabe was trying to say that those parents who choose to work are different to those who are working due to financial necessity in that they have actively prioritised working out of the home over being at home and focussing on their children. It is important to distinguish between parents that have the ability to choose whether they are a SAHP or working parent and those that are forced into their respective roles due to financial circumstance. I think if you're in a former group of parent then you are relatively privileged and should celebrate the fact that you had this choice and exercised it in the way that you genuinely believed would be best for your family.

In many ways it's a waste of time to focus on the differences in values and beliefs that form the basis of our views about SAHPs and WOHPs. The differences are often too disparate and entrenched to ever be reconciled and merely stating the different values (e.g. SAHMs are a backward step for equality, having a parent at home is best for the child) is likely to upset or offend women that have made different choices.