To hand child over to someone who can?

[Vengabusiscoming2019]

DD is 5. Life is horrendous with her and I'm a single parent.

Last night she came home from school and would not stop attacking her 3 year old brother. Even when I was sat in the middle of them if he so much as looked at her she was going for him. I had to call my neighbour to come get the 3 year old because I literally couldn't keep him safe from a 5 year old.

I dropped her to school this morning after being vile all morning and she leant in for a kiss and I literally couldn't bring myself to kiss her. I have to pick her up in 3 hours and I genuinely do not want to go. It's relentless and I'm broken.

Who do you call when you get to this point?

Post on the SN chat board, you will find better understanding of the day to day. Hold on, you will find a way and it will get easier.

I can't offer practical advice but what I want to say is that I can read how hard you are trying, that you are doing your very best. I just wanted to give you an uncharacteristic Mumsnet hug

@Vengabusiscoming2019

Hi it all sounds really tough at the moment, I think you should ask for an immediate urgent referral to Homestart. They will allocate a volunteer who can come in and at the very least give you a couple of hours a week and play with your little boy. While you could just catch your breath, make phone calls or housework.

Hi, you've had some good advice, I would agree in getting in touch with the HV and also the SEN Teacher at school. I work in a primary school and have done some work with children from difficult backgrounds.

One of the biggest issues is generally thought to be if they were going through trauma when they were young (under 5) it interferes with their development so much that a 5 year old is like a 1 or 2 year old in terms of emotional reasoning and understanding, so "think toddler" when dealing with a child with these experiences. They find it very hard to understand verbal explanations, especially when stressed.

I've found lots of articles/reports online that I'm wading through but this one childmind.org/article/how-trauma-affects-kids-school/ by Child Mind Institute is quite straightforward and doesn't have too much jargon.

You've removed the threat (well done! ), some children unfortunately are kept in these circumstances much longer, 2 is still very young (when you left) and hopefully she can be helped to grow and develop in a healthy environment now. Best wishes

Bloody hell OP I feel for you and your DD so much.

What a difficult situation. I agree with the love-bombing approach too, but I'm not an expert at all and I really hope you are able to get some professional help soon. It's too much on your own.

Could she be constantly testing you because she doesn't feel safe due to the past? So the more she rattles you the less safe she feels as she then feels she's losing you. And repeat.

It must be so exhausting and scary for you both. But you obviously love her a great deal (and you are her whole world) and you will get there. Just hang on in there.

@Devereux1 [an aside from this thread] I’d appreciate any links or research, people writing on this for ND kids you have on that, my dd has all sorts of rituals and repetitive comforting behaviour and we are scared to vary anything as she doesn’t sleep. We have a history of severe OCD and social anxiety in the family and they live very controlled, limited and terrified lives.

I’m not sure how to change things as the anxiety reaction can be 3 weeks of disordered sleep.

School have arranged an urgent meeting for Friday. Picking her up just now in the school office she bit me, spat at me and kept swesring at me. Then walking home she bit me a further 4 times and bolted into the road.

I don't understand how I can't even say hello to her before it starts

Where did she learn the swear words?

Could you learn some restraint techniques?

Swear words she could have picked up from anywhere. It's only the one she keeps saying

Hi op my DD has asd and can be like this too.
My understanding is that after holding themselves together all day is exhausting and you are a safe space so they can be their whole ugly and angry self to you and they know you are there for them.

You can self refer to cahms if you go to your gp. They run behaviour classes for parents of children with challenging behaviour or at least they do in my area. They may have some in your area.
Self referring to cahms was one of my better decisions. Good luck

The 'dad' is court ordered no direct or indirect contact as a result. I found myself messaging him earlier to take him

Has he replied?

OP, it is really rare for there to be an order for no contact at all, not even indirect contact. The court is trying to protect you and your children. Allowing him to have any involvement at all is going to make things much more complicated. It will undermine the therapeutic work you need to do with your daughter, and will put you all at risk.

I hope the urgent meeting on Friday results in some support for you. None of this is your fault. You have done so well to get away from him, and to get through both sets of proceedings. Things will get easier once you and your children have some help coping with the trauma you have all experienced.

In the meantime, I second the PP’s suggestion of ahaparenting.com. Good luck

OP you are right in it and I understand your frustrations.

It sounds like your DD desperately needs an EHCP and a place in a specialist school. Hopefully the meeting on Friday with the school will nudge things in the right direction.

Try not to be frustrated with her not being able to do the things you feel she ought to, she just isn't there developmentally. Not your fault, or hers. Just the way it is.

Oh OP I really feel for you, how utterly heartbreaking. I really hope the meeting on Friday leads to some much needed changes in the support you are/ aren't receiving.

@Devereux1 not satisfying the unhelpful needs or behaviours of non-neurotypical is also highly effective too. I honestly think this is not well researched and blunt advice. I’m very familiar with evidence around kids with difficulties and what people might take from what you’ve said is ‘just ignore the child’s obvious distress, anxiety and aggressive behaviours’ and don’t let them form routines.

All kids need routines. Neurotypical and others. All kids need security.

Once, and only once a child is fairly secure, can you begin to look at increasing tolerance.

And stopping a child from forming a routine could be mentally damaging. Or making them face a bright noisy supermarket when actually the noise is not tolerable is cruel.

This is not the same as a child starting an obsessive behaviour through anxiety, like having to put their coat on in a certain way and turn around three times and then wash their hands five times. Some of these, if possible, are best nipped in the bud, however not for many autistic kids who need a high level of control in their lives.

I have no practical advice I'm sorry.

Just wanted to offer hugs and encourage you to reach out for support.

Do you have any family or friends who could help you?

Keep on at the school and the HV/doctors until they reach a diagnosis. Don't let it lie. You both need the right support to work through whatever condition she has.

I don’t know the answer to this, OP, but

sounds like she also has ptsd

Sorry if has been said already but has anyone suggested Attachment Disorder? We are having similar with grandson age 4 and just started reception. He had a traumatic start to life which has left their mark on him. He hits out at school, trashes what he can touch. They have put things in place to help him feel more secure and more in control but weve also asked to be referred to senco as he really needs helping properly before he gets excluded. My heart breaks for him. Hes alot better at home now and doesnt lash out as much but weve all been through so much with him and his mum (my daughter).works full time and I have to collect him at 1pm each day as he cant cope with a full day. These children have been damaged and need nurture not discipline as this will just feed their insecurities. That's not saying no consequences for wrong behaviour. In between getting her help look into Therapeutic Parenting (groups on Facebook) and also Nurturing Parenting. Of course you also need help to cope with your awful trauma and how to move forward. Lots of love and hugs to you xxxxx

It might be worth contacting your local Women's Aid branch or domestic violence centre. They can usually help with counselling for children and support for mums.

I can see how it could be difficult to diagnose her at 5 and to work out if it's ASD or trauma, or both. Children who are traumatised (particularly those suffering with PTSD type symptoms) are at risk of being wrongly diagnosed with SEND. The controlling behaviour and obsession with routine could be an ASD symptom or your traumatised child attempting to feel safe. It must be very hard not knowing what the root cause is and how to help.

Either way, your daughter needs support and the earlier this intervention happens the better, for the entire family. You also know she has definitely been traumatised, so even if the ASD is still a question mark maybe this is something you could address with the help of a charity or private counselling?

You could also get counselling to help yourself as you have been through so much yourself and this could help you support both children. If it is very hard to access help for your daughter this could still be an option.

Has anyone spoken to you about PTSD symptoms in children? It might be worth reading up on this and seeing if it sounds familiar.

These links might help: www.spectrumnews.org/opinion/viewpoint/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-may-mimic-autism-children/
www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/intersection-autism-trauma/

You and your children deserve support. You should not be having to feel like this and watching your children suffer, nor suffer yourself due to lack of intervention from appropriate specialists.

Getting the dad involved will not help.
You know that.
You and she need professional psychology and practical support and a clear diagnosis
There are options like specialist childminders /foster carers / shared care /
Ask about family therapy / you could ask for someone to come to your home and help and/or observe and offer strategies etc

@treepolitics - will try. Remember to challenge much of what you are being told and ask for evidence. If people show you studies, check what the sample was. There are a lot of people making very biased claims in this area, jumping on bandwagons and full of child-first, whatever a child wants they get ethos, which is proven time and again to just make the parent feel better about themselves and doesn't help develop the child.

@WitchesGlove I'm sorry for what you went through as a child but this was your parents' fault for not addressing the issues/disorder your brother was clearly displaying traits of and just brushing it under the carpet.

The OP is actively trying to protect her son by reaching out for support and medical assistance for her daughter. Labelling a 5 year old as a vile, nasty bully is harsh and unhelpful. She needs to right treatment and support for whatever disorder she has. Her behaviour isn't normal, and children aren't born 'vile bullies'. She needs help, not vilifying. She is 5 FFS!

I've got nothing useful to contribute but my heart is pouring for you... And your ds and dd. I am actually in awe of how strong you are (you might not feel it). I hope things get better x

Quite often children who experienced trauma or have had a disruption in their attachment or have an attachment disorder will display behaviour very similar to a child on the spectrum.

It must be really difficult for you OP. I'm sure it's very frustrating that you haven't been able to get a proper explanation about why your child is behaving this way. It's not your fault but unfortunately you have to deal with it.

In a way, whether or not she has asd isn't the main issue. The main issues are that you need to know how to manage her behaviour and you need the support to manage her. I would second the suggestion a pp made that you should educate yourself on asd but also the effects of trauma on children. Many local authorities have early help services or emotional health services who may be able to provide some support.

OP I just wanted to send my support to you. It is understandable that you feel the way you do! It sounds like life has been incredibly difficult in the past 5 years. I am not a parenting expert but I do think you need an urgent early help hub referral and to get that TAF meeting set up. The Facebook group also sounds good as it sounds like you need people to vent to too.