VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

[churchandstate]

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

Do we believe that all these men VR named knew she was trafficked?
Had any idea at all? Does that matter? Does there need to be intent or knowledge in the crime of rape?

Do we believe that she was raped by Alan Dershowitz or are we only interested in Prince Andrew?
Do we believe every man she accused of raping her did so?

Can we accept that maybe Epstein hired a series of women who provided massage services - their choice to offer anything else was just that. He and they may very well have been aware of the potential other real deal but does it make them trafficked or escorts?
Surely trafficked holds some element of against your will or by coercion
I mean this seriously

It is hard to see as trafficked as I understand it by a long stretch

I’m so disappointed at the amount of pig ignorant, misogynistic women on this thread. Shame on you.

On the contrary I expected it It's how men get away with it.

If the FBI have seen her evidence and not charge PA, then why not?

I ask about Dershowitz because of this article showing emails from VR

Ronald iirc one of the girls (not VR) said Ghislaine took her passport. That points to being held against her will and trafficked.

fwiw I'm more interested in the other men VR accused because they have more influence, are more likely to face charges than PA and they knew she was under-age (because iirc they were in states where the age of consent is higher in the US than the UK).

Well, the DM is reporting that a new witness, as yet un-named, has come forward who vividly remembers seeing PA at Tramp nightclub on the night that PA and VR are said to have had sex.

Interesting? I wonder why she remembers it so vividly all of a sudden or whether she always knew but has just decided to come forward?

If the FBI have seen her evidence and not charge PA, then why not?

Because they don't take orders - or even suggestions - from Mummy2017 ?

If a Grand Jury has been convened, no one would know about it, and it might explain why things appear quiet for now. But I imagine Mummy2017 knows all about Grand Juries and how they work.

Nope, no knowledge at all.
Just curious and f the case is so clear, why nothing has been done.

Here is some info about Epstein Island - Little St James, US Virgin Islands. There are a lot of very important people involved.

www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/07/horrors-of-jeffrey-epstein-private-island

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Saint_James,_U.S._Virgin_Islands

Epstein was convicted in 2008 of only two crimes as part of a plea bargain, despite the fact that the FBI knew of at least 36 victims, some as young as 14.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Epstein

I watched Panorama last night and found it very disturbing. The things that VG and the other woman with the reddish hair- can't remember her name sorry- were saying happened was very shocking. JE must have thought he could get away with anything due to his money and power.
Also, what's happened to GM- she seems to have disappeared. Surely after seeing all this she would come out and say she's innocent of these accusations??

'Yes she had a hand in her own victimisation'

All the victim blaming comments here could equally be applied to the girls abused by the grooming gangs in Rotherham and other places. Indeed such things were said, writing those poor girls off as willing sluts. Can we never get better about this stuff?

VG is one of many women who were abused as teenage girls, the Palm Beach police identified over 50 girls and there's definitely more victims out there since some girls were trafficked from other countries. VG is brave and has every right to speak out about her experiences, she has given statements and testimony under oath and to the authorities and I think that should be remembered, she's not not just telling her story to the media. Prince Andrew on the other hand clearly desperately wants to say nothing at all to the FBI if possible.

I'm not saying she hasn't been abused. JE has abused her. IF PA knew she had been forced to have sex with him then that would also make him an abuser. The $64,000 question is whether he knew or not

Oh yes you’re absolutely right. When your very rich middle aged male friend shows up with an unrelated teenage girl, you don’t ask questions do you? You don’t wonder who the fuck she is, why she’s there or if your mate is a pervert. No, no, instead you make sure you get a chance to put your own penis in her.

Nope, no knowledge at all.

If you have no knowledge, how can you know ....

Just curious and f the case is so clear, why nothing has been done.

?

The Grand Jury was sequestered for over 200 days in the O.J. Simpson trial. There may yet be a jury deliberating on whether to serve indictments. If there is they would be doing it in secret, and none of the accused would know.

Oh yes you’re absolutely right. When your very rich middle aged male friend shows up with an unrelated teenage girl, you don’t ask questions do you? You don’t wonder who the fuck she is, why she’s there or if your mate is a pervert. No, no, instead you make sure you get a chance to put your own penis in her.

Exactly. Some people on this thread must HATE men, to think they’re so perverted they’ll fuck anything that stands still long enough without stopping for a second to think ‘hang on a minute!’

Some people on this thread must HATE men, to think they’re so perverted they’ll fuck anything that stands still long enough without stopping for a second to think ‘hang on a minute!’

Some people on this thread must HATE women, to think they'd be willing participants in their own sexual exploitation by wealthy men ...

All the victim blaming comments here could equally be applied to the girls abused by the grooming gangs in Rotherham and other places. Indeed such things were said, writing those poor girls off as willing sluts. Can we never get better about this stuff?

Not on MN - which reminds us in real life there are women that will continue to shit on other women at the first opportunity

I wonder why she remembers it so vividly all of a sudden or whether she always knew but has just decided to come forward?

I only heard about VR in the last few days. I didn’t Epstein’s death etc or pay any attention to PA stuff. It’s entirely possible this witness has only started paying attention to the story and remembers that one time they were in the nightclub and saw PA. I know I would sure as hell remember seeing PA in a nightclub.

I’ve just looked up the photos of VR at Naomi Campbell’s party. She looked very young indeed. She was young and vulnerable and was clearly failed by many people around her.

It is always disheartening to see people use the innocent until proven guilty to protect men, and yet so easily accuse vulnerable girls of the guilty action of lying.

I believe her. And I think this is likely just the tip of the iceberg to what he's been involved in. I hope his daughters share their disgust with him and he has to answer to them too. This "support Daddy" has to stop when men are doing this.

I believe her.

There is far FAR more chance that a rich, older man raised on entitlement who spends time with proven paedophiles DID abuse a trafficked young woman than that she is lying.
That's just how the world works. We make assessments based on probability all the time - innocent until proven guilty is the standard for conviction in court, not likelihood that something actually happened

^ I haven’t read the full thread but I thought that was extremely well put

She looked very young indeed.

She did look young. Anyone with half a brain would question why a billionaire businessman and his socialite girlfriend were traveling with such a young person who was so obviously out of place in those kinds of circles.

I hope his daughters share their disgust with him and he has to answer to them too.

A read of this thread would suggest they'll find a way to rationalise it. Starting (as some posters have already done the legwork) with a bit of victim blaming. Also she's American, which as we know counts for zero fucks in camp Windsor.

If the FBI have seen her evidence and not charge PA, then why not?

What the actual fuck? Are you this stupid? Charge him with what? Read the fucking thread for fucks sake

Do we believe that all these men VR named knew she was trafficked?
Had any idea at all? Does that matter? Does there need to be intent or knowledge in the crime of rape

It doesn’t matter as per the sec offences act 2003. The onus is on the man to ensure the person he has sex with hasn’t been trafficked

Do we believe that she was raped by Alan Dershowitz or are we only interested in Prince Andrew?
Do we believe every man she accused of raping her did so?

She hasn’t accused either of these men of raping her. Can you identify the other men she’s accused of rape?

Can we accept that maybe Epstein hired a series of women who provided massage services - their choice to offer anything else was just that

no, because that’s not what she said.
Why would you, with no knowledge of the situation try and argue differently?

He and they may very well have been aware of the potential other real deal but does it make them trafficked or escorts?
Surely trafficked holds some element of against your will or by coercion

yes. Coercion. Grooming. Force. Pick one. It is, after all, what the fbi were investigating him for before he killed himself maybe just put your faith in them

It is hard to see as trafficked as I understand it by a long stretch

you don’t understand it

I think that when these witnesses come forward years after the event, it is not that they suddenly remember at all. It is that the time is right to be believed. When people say “why now?” It’s maximum impact now isn’t it.

It’s interesting the knots people will tie themselves in to deny accusations on behalf of men they have no connection to whatsoever despite all the facts in front of them. What is that?

It feels like we are conflating Rotherham grooming rape and abuse with what happened with VR.

Sorry that doesn’t work for me.

I agree that in some other cases against Epstein he absolutely was guilty and should have been more appropriately sentenced and prosecuted.

I don’t feel the same way about VR. I believe what Maxwell said about her being 17 not 16 and I think her emails and the commentary from her original lawyers is telling.
I think she perhaps did things she later regretted. If she was under the age of consent in the area of the US where that occurred then that is rape.
To say those men involved knew she was either underaged or trafficked is a stretch imo.