to think that the NHS is really quite shit and that not everyone who works in it is an underpaid hero?

[Adenosine]

There is a strange British preoccupation with the NHS which I think prevents honest public dialogue about its many shortcomings. At the time it was set up it was innovative, but now there are many other universal healthcare systems most of which are better than the NHS and many of which cost less money.

It's ranked low globally and really quite shit yet few people dare criticise or. AIBU to think that we really need to be far more critical?

I agree I think the NHS is shit. I have had cancer for the past two years plus. It has been a continuous farcical saga. Firstly, my cancer was misdiagnosed for five months, including repeated visits to the GP and ridiculous waiting times for procedures such as colonoscopies. Eventually, I was admitted as an emergency and had a large part of my small bowel removed. The care after the operation was appalling, with numerous mistakes, dirty wards, and a lot of staff who basically didn’t give a damn. After my course of chemotherapy, I had to chase up follow up appointments, having to wait over five months after my all clear scan. Despite telling my consultant of further symptoms, I was ignored. My next follow up appointment was cancelled due to Covid. Now I have cancer again. I had to beg to be admitted to hospital because I was in so much pain and literally couldn’t get of bed. Treatment has been dire, again with numerous mistakes, including being given the wrong medications and the attitude of some staff a lot to be desired.

Yes, there are many staff who are great and brilliant at their job, but that is counterbalanced by many others who should not be in the profession and don’t care about the patient. The administration, management and nursing routines are ridiculously outdated and this is where most of the mistakes happen - systems from the dark ages, much information is still handwritten and the same information recorded again and again, procedures repeated again and again unnecessarily.

The NHS is not free. We pay for it through NI contributions. It needs to be scrapped and built again, instead of shoring it up and pretending it’s marvellous.

I do think the deification of the nhs is preventing any rational debate about it. I worked as a mental health nurse in the nhs for 17 years...it broke me and I was poached by a private firm. Still do huge amounts of liaison with the nhs and adult inpatient psychiatry is shocking. Lots of well meaning professionals but poor systems and awful management. The nhs wastes huge amounts of cash on layers of pointless bureaucracy and unnecessary layers of management. CAMHS again well meaning but massively badly organised with a culture of just "seeing" people rather than offering structured evidence based treatments and accepting far too many referrals for what are in essence social problems that cannot be fixed by an hour now again with a well meaning professional. Lots of cash spent on treatments that have very little proven efficacy just to justify a professional stance e.g certain psychological therapies...their outcomes are pretty poor but psychologists earn A LOT in comparison to nurses, physios, dieticians, speech therapists etc.

Where I do think the nhs comes into it's own is dealing with emergencies....It's spot on. However this is at the expense of the routine stuff that then gets left so long it becomes an emergency.

Yes it is shit but we Brits tend to have a misplaced sense of superiority because it was a beacon of example for decades. The NHS was created after the war, and once Churchill had been voted out. Labour put measures in place to look after everyone. Now it's outdated and the quality is poor. Compared to other countries you pretty much get treated like shit as a patient too. That is, unless you've rinsed it to death with your own problems and can say it saved you more money, like one of the previous posters on here. And we do pay for the NHS through taxes.

The simple fact is that most countries have a better system but the NHS may only be compared to the USA. The save the NHS mantra promoted during this crisis is actually business as usual. Unlike other countries we are deterred from using our healthcare.

If someone in France or Germany develops a rash and it doesn't move after applying the ointment reccommended by the chemist, then the German or French person can call a dermatologist and book an immediate appointment. In the UK we must first see a GP, mainly privately run gatekeepers, who's task is to "save the NHS". For a non-urgent appoinment there can be some wait. The GP although not sure what is wrong will suggest a generic cream and a further appointment in 4 weeks. Eventually if nothing else works an appointment will be made to see a dermatologist but this may be 6 months after the rash first appeared.
Even those with private health insurance can only access a specialist through a GP. This is why most Europeans return home for health treatment even if they have private health insurance here. Other systems are faster, more efficient and trust the end users to access the healthcare they require. Ours in a nanny system, we are not trusted and we must be prevented from wasting specialist's time.

I notice your post does upset people as I guess the nhs is tied into national pride - therefore criticism is unpatriotic. Many of my family members have had to go to Europe for reliable treatment and my own experience hasn’t been particularly positive. Very silly to make comparisons with America as they don’t have universal healthcare. We have to be grateful I guess, a bit like being low paid but grateful that you’re not unemployed...

I love the NHS. It’s one of the most efficient healthcare systems in the world (cost per service) and provides a free at the point of use healthcare service for millions.

However, we have become far too used to it here in the UK and expectations have sky rocketed. The fact is most will never pay near what their healthcare costs. But nobody has a clue what healthcare costs in the UK as everybody is used to getting it for so little. Throw in over entitlement and a ‘comp culture’ and it’s got the NHS on its knees. People like investigations and treatment in Healthcare as it validates their reasoning for seeking medical attention. Hence, private systems that make £££ from diagnostic scans are popular with the punters as they like to be scanned as it ‘puts their mind at rest’. Ignore the fact it costs loads and likely throws a dose of cancer causing radiation at you. The NHS doesn’t give investigations or treatment without good cause and people often call the diagnosis pathway as they don’t understand the process. Granted, the NHS is no frills in terms of customer service but you get the right tests and treatment at a fraction of the actual cost.

But we are far too entitled in this country and have got very used to our paternalistic government. As soon as the shit hits everybody wants the government to fix it and a hand out. People have no incentive to look after their own health and want to blame somebody else when it all comes unstuck.

If people had a clue of the cost of healthcare and put their big adult pants on to finally take some responsibility for themselves the NHS (and the country) would be in a far better state.

Rant over.

YANBU

And I don't know why people are bringing up the US

Why don't we model our health service on France, Netherlands or Germany. All of which have much better outcomes for patients.

I've experienced both amazing and poor service from the NHS. I also work in it and it is honestly so inefficient. The trust I work in still has paper records because the electronic systems are so clunky and not joined up very well. It is actually almost painful how long it takes to do simple things. And I often feel embarrassed while on the phone to patients about how long we are asking them to wait for results letters etc.

If we had good streamlined computer systems we could get through so much more work (admin).

Most of the time we are banging our head against a brick wall while the bosses berate us for not having done x y and z

Totally agree with taking responsibility for our own health, the British have the worst diet of processed rubbish and poor health behaviour that the service has to contend with for a start .. but that’s not the Only reason NHS is struggling. I have worked for health watchdogs and gathered plenty of evidence that tests and scans have not been offered ending in early death. It can be very difficult convincing GPs that you are actually ill and it isn’t just stress. I have countless accounts of people being turned away and physical symptoms not investigated - same happened with my children, son sent home from hospital age 12 with acute appendicitis- ended up with serious complications once appendix had burst within an hour of being sent home, and despite all the classic symptoms witnessed by healthcare staff. Doctors in UK contributed to a long article in the Times admitting they hadn’t prescribed antibiotics as a preventative to newborns believing themselves responsible for 1000s of deaths. I had better treatment in Cairo - they actually believed me when I turned up at a hospital with son with Asthma... my sister has gone to live in France as the NHS is not taking care of her lung cancer. We need to stop getting upset about criticising the NHS - it’s like schools that say - no no we don’t have bullying here, turn out to be the worst offenders due to their denial of a problem.
The NHS has become a cash cow for private contractors and is hung up on performance targets that need to be met at the cost of quality. While there are clearly many positive stories and good practice by good people in the NHS, it just isn’t the best in the world...

Schools and the NHS need lifting out of party politics, they need ring fencing and given to special expert, cross party, comitee teams.

We need to pull on all the best health care system s in the world, and steam line.

I've had quite a lot of experience in many different areas of the NHS and whilst much is to applaud, there is much to de cry also.
It's flabby, bloated and seemingly free.... Management top heavy, too much out sourcing and in equality of care.

@Adenosine

Maybe not as exhausted as a patient left to puke, scream and cry on a chair in a waiting room for four hours though, eh? While they discussed their weekend social plans and what was on telly the night before.

Don't even fucking go there. Seriously.

I am an NHS nurse in a hospital inpatient ward. While I agree with some aspects of your argument, with other countries of course having better health care systems. Ours being dictated by political gains. Wasting money on some aspects where other aspects of healthcare would benefit from.

You completely lost me when you said this. I rarely get a break on time, I always try to take them because they’re important. But when I’m there I’m thinking about the 10 jobs I’ll do when I’m back on the ward, or hoping someone has enough time to complete a job I’ve asked them to while I’m gone.
I personally like to keep my personal life private. But I know others will of course talk about weekend social plans on Netflix documentaries that have interested them.
In my time on the ward I’ve never seen staff talking about personal things leaving a patient in need of medical attention. That remark I find insulting as I work really hard to ensure medications are administered on time and my patients are clean and safe. It’s unfortunately not in my control of agreements for certain treatments - something I do see as a downfall in the NHS. But I do leave my shifts exhausted after caring for 9 peoples complete health from their head to their toe.
I help them wash in the morning
Brush their teeth before breakfast
I serve their breakfast
I administer their meds on time
I loaded with doctors about treatments
I liase with physiotherapists about their mobility
I speak to social workers to ensure the home is safe
I chase pharmacists to get their medications on the ward
I tend to any wounds that require dressing
I itch their back because the hospital chair has been touching their skin and made them uncomfortable
I’ve called their relative to inform them how the patient is doing
I also call the relative to ask if they can bring the patients favourite food in to cheer them up
This is all usually in the first 3-4 hours of the shift.

I assure you I do not sit chatting about my weekend when things need to be done.
While I agree with many of your previous points I don’t agree with this one. Please don’t tar us all with the same brush 🙏🏼

I do also agree that Spain’s healthcare system is very good as I’ve heard before, never experienced first hand myself. It would 100% help if the NHS was removed from government politics and taken over as a business format. People would understand more the costing behind things. Would likely take more control over their own health and thus overall costing would be lower. This would enable those who need help to get access quicker - which is currently a huge downfall in the current system.

The truth is sometimes it works really well. My fathers chemotherapy and palliative care was very good. Other times it can be awful. Long waits for hip and knee replacements. Mixed attitudes of some staff. Some of whom are great, some are really unhelpful. Not all of this down to funding, some of it is attitude and structure. Worked in Australia and Europe which mix insurance and national infrastructure. I would say German and Australian models are miles ahead.

This thread is from 2019!!

@PinkiOcelot the issues with the NHS have been highlighted even more by Covid.

The simple fact is that most countries have a better system but the NHS may only be compared to the USA.

There is a simple reason for that. Nobody, like nobody believes that a British government would replace it with a properly funded healthcare system on the lines of the best continental ones. That is a lot of taxpayers' money in a country which has a relatively low sense of public common purpose.

If the NHS is scrapped, it will only be to replace it with a US style system where the poor and vulnerable are left to die.

The NHS is not without faults but it is the best we have and the best we're likely to get. There are strong interests pushing to have it privatised.

The continental healthcare systems that people are referring to are very good (in waiting times not necessarily care received) but there’s a significant cost implication. Germany is notorious for having one of the highest tax rates in the developed world. Grant you get a lot for your taxes there but in the UK we’re already complaining about the tax we have to pay. In the Netherlands you have to pay an enforced medical insurance premium per person on top of taxation. In France you have to pay medical bills up front before claiming the money back later. These systems with shorter waiting times for elective treatments come at a cost.

@Sohappy14 I’m very sorry to hear what happened with your son. But appendicitis is notoriously difficult to pick up from clinical assessment alone. Ultrasound doesn’t have a high yield either so the only sure way is CT scan which carries a increased risk of cancer especially in a 12 year old. It’s very common to use ‘watchful waiting’ I.e. send the patient home with strict instructions to come if it gets worse as a way of managing it in lotta of countries (including European and USA). I’m not sure what happened in the case of your son but things like this aren’t always a ‘failing’ of a healthcare system but are on the edge of medical intervention.

@RedMarauder while I agree that the sauces around the NHS are always relevant, many healthcare systems in the world (and Europe) have been brought to their knees due to Covid. Even ones that people on here are hailing as amazing healthcare systems. Despite what the media might have people believe the UK isn’t the only country struggling in the pandemic!

Another zombie thread. Sigh.

Quite simply the NHS is no longer fit for purpose. We hear claims “it’s the best in the world”, or “they’re heroes” and if you dare to criticise the NHS people get very emotional about it, but the reality is when you get up close and personal with the NHS and need it’s help you realise it’s in a diabolical state.

I am a nurse working in an autism specialist hospital. One of my patients has been very unwell over the past 6 months, yet the hospital refuses to treat him. Its getting to the point where his foot will have to be amputated due to the lack of treatment or basic care he has received. The last time we took him in, the nurses cheered and said here he is again, followed by 'find someone who cares'. He is challenging and can be disruptive but deserves the same care as everyone else, and is not a risk to the staff as he is on a 4 staff escort in, he is more disruptive than anything, has very little verbal communication. The way the nurses and doctors have been with him is horrendous and many safeguarding reports have been sent. So, yeah, I agree with op, a lot of improvements need to be made.

A couple of friends emigrated to Spain and had their families over there. Their experience of having a baby and care on the maternity wards in Spain was infinitely better than anything you get here.

I am training for an NHS role. It's not pergect but the statr of the art equipment that can save lives is amazing.

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